Help me decide,10 band EQ or boost for 5150 II? [Archive]

spawnofthesith

12-17-2008, 04:55 AM

As some of you may know, I recently have come into ownership of a 5150 II. In January or so I will probably be getting some stuff such as a noise supressor, but I am also interested in getting either this thing

http://images.guitarcenter.com/products/optionlarge/MXR/562885jpg.jpg

or this guy

http://images.guitarcenter.com/products/optionlarge/Maxon/239839jpg.jpg

What is the general consensus for being better for 5150s, a boost or an EQ? And EQs sound best when run through the fx loop correct?

Thanks

Metaldude30

12-17-2008, 05:37 AM

I would say it just depends on what you are wanting to do, I mean if you are happy with the tone you are getting right now then I would say the boost, it will tighten up your lowend a bit and give you some extra bite and tighten up the gain but if you don't like the tone and are looking to improve it and just get an over all better tone I'd say go for the EQ and yes they work best in the loop. Another idea would be a BBE sonic maximizer or the stomp sonic, they are both the same thing one is just a pedal version. Take some time and think about your current tone and figure out how happy you are with it.

vitod

12-17-2008, 06:13 AM

I use an EQ ped and it does tighten things up and boost at the same time. I say get the EQ FIRST and play with it. It sounded so good that a OD ped wasn't needed.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o258/slide51k/IMG_0906.jpg

borkthrone

12-17-2008, 08:34 AM

get both... run the EQ through the effects loop, and the overdrive straight into the front end, I have the exact same set up (my overdrive is a TS - 9, same thing though) and it sounds great... as metal dude said, a BBE sonic maximizer (the stomp version in this case) is also a good investment, I run mine after the EQ in the effects loop.. those three things might sound like a bit of overkill but they all have subtleties to contribute which after using them, you won't want to play without them. enjoy.

gorsch

12-17-2008, 09:37 AM

borkthrone

12-17-2008, 11:29 AM

Personally I dont think you really "need" either. I've tried all the suggestions with my 5150II and I'm right back just running straight in.

heres my experiences
Sonic maximizer--- completely destroys the natural tone of a 5150. They are very upper mid heavy amps and when you run a SM it seems to lose the mid range response that draws people to the 5150. I felt like it made my amp sound "modeled" after every other amp out there. Just sounded too fake. I thought it sounded good for a while but when I finally spent $$ on GOOD tubes there was no need for it. Actually then it sounded worse.

OD pedals- I'd go with the Maxon out of any other OD. My TS9 just made it sound thin and kinda harsh. Liked how it increased my picking dynamics and kinda gave my right hand a bit of a break. I simply didnt have to try as hard to sound tight in my playing. My solution was to run 2 Tung Sol 12ax7's in the first 2 gain stages for the lead channel. It brightened up the amp a lot, added more sensitivity and allowed me to drop my gain to 4 in turn tightening up my poweramp. As for the OD making my playing tighter...................just learn to play tight without it.

EQ- I'd say I like that the best because it doesnt cover up your playing and kinda works with your amps natural tone.

I'd say it really depends on what you dont like about the amp on it's own.

What tubes do you use? (power and pre) I just listened to some of the stuff on your myspace... is it fair to say you like a really "dry" tone from your amp? To clarify the reason I use all the extra stuff through my 5150 II is because it brings me really close to that really saturated Carcass "heartwork" sound... which to me sounds amazing, to some others.. "modeled". This is a fair analogy as I am a line 6 fanatic as well, and find that my above mentioned setup sounds a lot like a really gained out line 6 amp, but really articulate and responsive . I suspect if I played with a band, which I haven't for years, and played at high volumes, that I would definitely have to tweak things / or remove some of these items form the equation entirely. For day to day playing though, I still really like all those other things in conjunction with the 5150II.

Rex Rocker

12-17-2008, 12:08 PM

OD in front of the amp = AMAZING tone, IMO

I can link ya to some unboosted and boosted 5150 comparison clips!

http://andysneap.com/media/tubescreamer/

gorsch

12-17-2008, 12:17 PM

What tubes do you use? (power and pre) I just listened to some of the stuff on your myspace... is it fair to say you like a really "dry" tone from your amp? To clarify the reason I use all the extra stuff through my 5150 II is because it brings me really close to that really saturated Carcass "heartwork" sound... which to me sounds amazing, to some others.. "modeled". This is a fair analogy as I am a line 6 fanatic as well, and find that my above mentioned setup sounds a lot like a really gained out line 6 amp, but really articulate and responsive . I suspect if I played with a band, which I haven't for years, and played at high volumes, that I would definitely have to tweak things / or remove some of these items form the equation entirely. For day to day playing though, I still really like all those other things in conjunction with the 5150II.

I think you mean my bands page since I dont have shit on mine. Thats not even me playing. Thats my other guitarist using his Blackmore. And it really doesnt do his tone justice either in his defense. They were looking for another guitarist durning the recording process for that album. He did both guitar parts and they reamped his shit through all sorts of garbage. Personally I felt he done better just mic'in his shit but the guy that was recording thought he knew his shit. We've since realized that wasnt the case. Unfortunately since my last band split I dont have anything up with my amp. I've got some demos somewhere but thats it. We've got vids on our youtube page but once again....not really a good way to judge my tone.

I still am curious to tinker more with an EQ becuase I started out using one when I was 16 and got my first 5150. Now at 26 I've kinda found ways to get around extra gear. Biggest thing is a good cab. I dont see the point in putting band-aids on gunshot wounds so to speak. Yeah it'll sound good but it's a quick fix. No matter how you polish a turd, it's still a turd.

And also at low volumes I do like the SM. Just with a full band you tent to mush up into the mix.

Really this was just my opinion based on my experiences. I figured if the O.P knew what he wanted to change about his tone I could better suggest things at that point.

borkthrone

12-17-2008, 12:27 PM

I think you mean my bands page since I dont have shit on mine. Thats not even me playing. Thats my other guitarist using his Blackmore. And it really doesnt do his tone justice either in his defense. They were looking for another guitarist durning the recording process for that album. He did both guitar parts and they reamped his shit through all sorts of garbage. Personally I felt he done better just mic'in his shit but the guy that was recording thought he knew his shit. We've since realized that wasnt the case. Unfortunately since my last band split I dont have anything up with my amp. I've got some demos somewhere but thats it. We've got vids on our youtube page but once again....not really a good way to judge my tone.

I still am curious to tinker more with an EQ becuase I started out using one when I was 16 and got my first 5150. Now at 26 I've kinda found ways to get around extra gear. Biggest thing is a good cab. I dont see the point in putting band-aids on gunshot wounds so to speak. Yeah it'll sound good but it's a quick fix. No matter how you polish a turd, it's still a turd.

And also at low volumes I do like the SM. Just with a full band you tent to mush up into the mix.

Really this was just my opinion based on my experiences. I figured if the O.P knew what he wanted to change about his tone I could better suggest things at that point.

it's all good, I haven't had the experience with a band or at high volumes so it's good you said something... what kind of cab / tubes do you use? I use a Marshall 1960 lead.. sounds much better than a 5150 cab IMO..

gorsch

12-17-2008, 12:42 PM

OD in front of the amp = AMAZING tone, IMO

I can link ya to some unboosted and boosted 5150 comparison clips!

http://andysneap.com/media/tubescreamer/

the thing with that is that you dont know if he adjusted the eq on the amp each time. With an unboosted 5150 you need much less lows, more mids and gain. Boosted changes your whole amp EQ. You then need to boost the lows to compensate for the thinning effect as well cut highs and mids and gain. So if he was simply just turning off the OD then yeah, off course unboosted would sound like ass.

And for tubes I use TAD 6L6GC-STR (as power)

then if you looking at the back of the amp, my pre amp tubes go from right to left.....
V6- Sovtek 12AX7 LPS (phase inverter)
V1- Tung-Sol 12ax7 Re-issue
V2- Tung-Sol 12ax7 Re-issue
V5- Shuguang 12AX7 9th gen.
V3- Penta 12AX7
V4- Shuguang 12AX7 9th gen.

Penta 12AX7's really helps tame the "fizzle" mentioned about 5150's as well as help the "clean" be more clean. Lower gain and warmer sounding tube.

My cabs got a long story with it. It's got eminence legend 12's. A V30 copy pretty much. They sound great at less than half the price of V30's.

Spoonylove90

12-17-2008, 12:54 PM

An EQ is always handy anyway. I think you should just pick that up just to have. If it boosts ok and you like it, then its a win win.

gorsch

12-17-2008, 01:10 PM

also you gotta crank the bias pot right beside the power tubes. Even at max it wont hurt the amp. You'll see the tubes glow a lot more. Mine are a real nice dark blue. Looks awsome on a dark stage.

Riff Master Mike

12-17-2008, 04:55 PM

EQ!

Rex Rocker

12-17-2008, 05:47 PM

Gorsch, you REALLY don't like boosts, do you? :lol

KH Guitar Freak

12-17-2008, 10:10 PM

Both if you can, but you don't really need one...

DeathIsMyJustice

12-18-2008, 04:31 AM

I ran a 15 band EQ when I had a 5150 but I went on to ditch it because I felt I didnt need it. Never felt the need for a boost

ozzuk1

12-18-2008, 05:18 AM

If you can try both, but my advice is if you want something to help change the tone a fair bit and tighten things up then get the EQ you might find the amp too fizzy and the EQ can reduce that...

You could get a bbe sonic maximizer 422-A I've been reccomended to not use the newer bbe's and that the 422-A works best with the 5150's.

If however you just want something to give the amp an extra something then maybe youll be happier with the OD..

If you can afford it that xotic pedal seems to be the best, allthough i'm quite happy with the bad monkey, I also like the fact it has a bass and treble control, which i prefer to a tone control.

Is there anyway you can try these things at a store?

We can all advise till we're blue in the face but you may be after something else.

Allthough after using an od to boost/tighten the front end I don't like going straight in as much...

Good luck...

gorsch

12-18-2008, 06:12 AM

Gorsch, you REALLY don't like boosts, do you? :lol

Apparently I'm not the only one.

Both if you can, but you don't really need one...

I ran a 15 band EQ when I had a 5150 but I went on to ditch it because I felt I didnt need it. Never felt the need for a boost

Also I believe it was Poidaobi and LRJ here on the boards that have some of the best recorded 5150 tones and I dont think they use a boost much. I think they said they do once in a while but dont really see the need on a 5150.

I dont hate OD's, I just dont need the extra bite or drive to get my tone where I like it. I keep the gain at 4 or 5 max. Keeps things super tight. Plus thats 1 more stomp needed to go clean (yes I go clean on a 5150 and it sounds fine) and 1 more thing in the way on my pedal board. My od is a SD1 I use as a "mid gain" or third channel or I kick it on for leads that I dont use my wah for. Cant do that when your using it as a boost all the time.

My tone matches my other guitarist Blackmore almost perfectly. Same tones pretty much but with different voicings. Mines raw while his is "finished."

Strange

12-18-2008, 10:18 AM

Personally I dont think you really "need" either. I've tried all the suggestions with my 5150II and I'm right back just running straight in.

heres my experiences
Sonic maximizer--- completely destroys the natural tone of a 5150. They are very upper mid heavy amps and when you run a SM it seems to lose the mid range response that draws people to the 5150. I felt like it made my amp sound "modeled" after every other amp out there. Just sounded too fake. I thought it sounded good for a while but when I finally spent $$ on GOOD tubes there was no need for it. Actually then it sounded worse.

OD pedals- I'd go with the Maxon out of any other OD. My TS9 just made it sound thin and kinda harsh. Liked how it increased my picking dynamics and kinda gave my right hand a bit of a break. I simply didnt have to try as hard to sound tight in my playing. My solution was to run 2 Tung Sol 12ax7's in the first 2 gain stages for the lead channel. It brightened up the amp a lot, added more sensitivity and allowed me to drop my gain to 4 in turn tightening up my poweramp. As for the OD making my playing tighter...................just learn to play tight without it.

EQ- I'd say I like that the best because it doesnt cover up your playing and kinda works with your amps natural tone.

I'd say it really depends on what you dont like about the amp on it's own.

I totally agree on the sonic maximizer. They kill a lot of the subtle nuances of the amp (which you presumably wanted to have when you bought it).

I disagree a bit on the OD making your playing sound tighter though. They tighten your tone, but not your playing. When I started running my TS9 in front of my Mesa I was able to hear what I was playing a lot more clearly, which made me realize that I needed to work a lot harder on my playing and technique. So, in a way, having an OD forced me to actually play tighter.

gorsch

12-18-2008, 12:09 PM

I totally agree on the sonic maximizer. They kill a lot of the subtle nuances of the amp (which you presumably wanted to have when you bought it).

I disagree a bit on the OD making your playing sound tighter though. They tighten your tone, but not your playing. When I started running my TS9 in front of my Mesa I was able to hear what I was playing a lot more clearly, which made me realize that I needed to work a lot harder on my playing and technique. So, in a way, having an OD forced me to actually play tighter.

I can agree on that point with the od. Everything is more sensitive so your sloppy notes are there and deffinatley easier to hear. I was going more a long the lines of palm mutes and pinch harmonics and anything that involves fast picking. It seems to take less right hand effort when speed picking/palm muting/pinch harmonics (since it takes less to make the desired sound). I've talked with people who say they like an OD because it's easier to do pinch harmonics. In that case you should focus on your playing and not adding gear to cover up the fact you suck. You should be able to do PH on an acoustic or at least on an electric unplugged. (and I dont mean anyone specific when I say "you")

It all really comes down to the desired tone your huntin. I'd still like to hear what the OP didnt like about the amp on it's own or the characteristics he'd like to emphasize are. I just think with a 5150 there are many other options/methods you can use without having to include extra gear.

And Strange, we gotta hook up and do a show up in your neck of the woods sometime. We've some hookups in GA but no one that has a good draw. Weed glady return the favor down here.

Rex Rocker

12-18-2008, 12:28 PM

I don't think boosts are about masking your playing whatsoever. The dudes in COUNTLESS professional bands I assure you are TIGHT players, and many of them uses boosts.

Sixstringhotshot

12-18-2008, 12:58 PM

It seems to take less right hand effort when speed picking/palm muting/pinch harmonics (since it takes less to make the desired sound). I've talked with people who say they like an OD because it's easier to do pinch harmonics. In that case you should focus on your playing and not adding gear to cover up the fact you suck. You should be able to do PH on an acoustic or at least on an electric unplugged. (and I dont mean anyone specific when I say "you")

By that logic, we shouldn't use distortion because it makes it easier to pinch harmonics and sustain notes. We should focus on our playing instead.

8o

Gravy Tank

12-18-2008, 01:48 PM

I don't think boosts are about masking your playing whatsoever. The dudes in COUNTLESS professional bands I assure you are TIGHT players, and many of them uses boosts.

Adam D. comes to mind.

gorsch

12-18-2008, 02:31 PM

I don't think boosts are about masking your playing whatsoever. The dudes in COUNTLESS professional bands I assure you are TIGHT players, and many of them uses boosts.

It all really comes down to the desired tone your huntin. I'd still like to hear what the OP didnt like about the amp on it's own or the characteristics he'd like to emphasize are. I just think with a 5150 there are many other options/methods you can use without having to include extra gear.

remember that part?

By that logic, we shouldn't use distortion because it makes it easier to pinch harmonics and sustain notes. We should focus on our playing instead.

8o

We'll in theory yes but thats no fun. I'm just saying that you shouldn't have to use MORE gain to make you a more impressive player. If you depend on an OD pedal to get tight palm mutes or nice PH then you do need to practice more. You should be able to get it with any gain.

Rex Rocker

12-18-2008, 02:58 PM

I kind of disagree, dude. I kinda see SSHS's point. What you're basically saying is 'if it makes you sound better, you shouldn't use it', or at least that's how it's coming out. By your logic, then people shouldn't use 5150's for that matter and stick to less saturated amps.

I agree with you about that first part, tho. Boosts may or may not be what one is looking for, totally true.

Sixstringhotshot

12-18-2008, 05:32 PM

We'll in theory yes but thats no fun. I'm just saying that you shouldn't have to use MORE gain to make you a more impressive player. If you depend on an OD pedal to get tight palm mutes or nice PH then you do need to practice more. You should be able to get it with any gain.

I'll agree that guitar is no fun without distortion. :lol

I would compare a boost to a compressor with a tone knob. Yes, if you use "high gain" and a bunch of boost you can get away with a VERY light touch and still get a brutal sound with awesome pinches. But it doesn't hide your technique. Shitty pinches will sound shitty no matter what. So will shitty palm muting. If anything, boosting will exaggerate a player's faults.

I boost, but I use very little gain on the amp and I play like I'm trying to kill it. :cool:

gorsch

12-19-2008, 06:13 AM

I'm saying when a dude comes up to you and says "wow, now that I have this OD pedal I can do pinch harmonics." And then they continue to use it instead of learning how to do them correctly or practice at least. Thats why I was saying "depend on an OD to do......."

Yes, people have come to me and said things like this. I feel like smacking them acrossed the face and taking their guitar away.

If you've got your technique down and have "your tone" and you use the OD to enhance your tone and not your playing, then I'm all cool. Thats how it should be used. I just feel that people toss a boost up front before they even bother to tweak other things. When anyone here on the boards gets a new amp the first thing anyone mentions is throwing an OD up front. Alot of peoples complaints about the tightness of their 5150's could probably be resolved in many other ways. Cab, tubes, or EQ or 1000 other ways. There's just so many other ways to get the same effect I feel they go for the quick fix.

I'm kinda biased I guess because for one, I'm a less is more guy. If you cant play or do certain songs without a specific piece of gear, either your playing isnt that great or the song isnt that great. Also, when I was first learning to play my dad gave my a bass amp for my strat. No distortion at all. Had me learn how to play clean first, just all blues or anyting that didnt require gain. That way your fretting hands and picking hands have to be on point. After I showed I could play and had been practicing (and asked him to teach me Enter Sandman) he gave me a distortion pedal.

From there I got lazy with my playing becuase I had gain now. It was way more fun to create feedback then work on old Hendrix. Even though now I would rather play some Hendrix.

Did I really just type all that, damn sorry. Just got to work. I need some coffee.

gorsch

12-19-2008, 06:16 AM

I boost, but I use very little gain on the amp and I play like I'm trying to kill it. :cool:

what amp and od are you runnin? I'm still open to try other OD's, I just seem to find that I'm happier without one.

Strange

12-19-2008, 07:00 AM

It was way more fun to create feedback then work on old Hendrix.

I'm pretty sure that's how Hendrix felt as well.

And yeah, if you wanna head this way for a show give me a yell!

spawnofthesith

12-19-2008, 01:18 PM

Thanks for all the input guys. I will definitely try and find a way to try them out and decide which one I would prefer. Right now without having tried btoh though, I am leaning a little towards an EQ

KFW

12-20-2008, 02:06 AM

A lot of people don't use OD's just to get more gain. Usually they lower the gain on the amp and use the OD to tighten up the tone or give it a different flavor. If they were using it strictly for MORE gain, that'd be assuming their amp's gain knob is already cranked because apparently they couldn't get enough.

borkthrone

12-20-2008, 02:48 AM

ha.. at the end of the day I like millions of things running through my amp for the same reason why I have 8 guitars. There's no real logic behind it, just unabashed gear sluttery lol..

poidaobi

12-20-2008, 04:16 AM

Apparently I'm not the only one.

Also I believe it was Poidaobi and LRJ here on the boards that have some of the best recorded 5150 tones and I dont think they use a boost much. I think they said they do once in a while but dont really see the need on a 5150.

Thanks mate. The only 5150 clip I boosted was the one that says boosted.

I think the 5150 sounds best without it IMO.

But people use Boost to get a different sound. Some people love the sound with the character the boost adds.

I fucking love the Cobra with a boost though :)

poidaobi = LRJ btw. :D:lol

Sixstringhotshot

12-20-2008, 08:28 AM

what amp and od are you runnin? I'm still open to try other OD's, I just seem to find that I'm happier without one.

VHT Deliverance 120 and an MXR GT-OD. Some days I like the OD, some days I'm happier without.

TheDevilHimself

12-21-2008, 02:02 AM

Far too much talk and discussion here, when all we need to say is:
Practice to play tight.

poidaobi

12-21-2008, 03:15 AM

Far too much talk and discussion here, when all we need to say is:
Practice to play tight.

+1.

and the "gain hides mistakes" is also retarded too.

KH Guitar Freak

12-21-2008, 03:48 AM

+1.

and the "gain hides mistakes" is also retarded too.

Yup, we all know only the wah wah pedal does that... 8o

gorsch

12-22-2008, 09:27 AM

poidaobi = LRJ btw. :D:lol

thought so. just wasnt sure. :D

Brian

12-22-2008, 01:13 PM

I'd go EQ - more EVH style.

Blake

12-22-2008, 08:53 PM

I'm of the 'use as little gain as possible' crew. I only have mine set to four and it still crunches hard, you just gotta whomp the shit out of your strings. Its obviously not very good for string lifespan but the added clarity from using less gain makes it worthwhile. And it just sounds meaner. You can really hear the strings going "WTF STOP HITTING ME". :lol

poidaobi

12-22-2008, 09:21 PM

Yep I generally set my gain at a level where I feel I have to pick harder to get more crunch.

gorsch

12-23-2008, 05:57 AM

also with the gain that low you generally dont need a noise gate of any kind either. Or atleast you dont need it on all the time anyway. I only use my NS2 when rolling back the volume doesnt do the trick.

and yeah, my strings usually last a week with shows. Thats usually 2 practices at least and 1 show sometimes 2. 2 weeks without any shows.

the_emptier

12-27-2008, 02:19 PM

i use the eq as a boost for my marshall but it changes the tone alot :/

Sixstringhotshot

12-27-2008, 03:17 PM