just spreadin' the love here - obama wants all-out handgun ban

[esp_gaijin]

just read and be aware, although i'm sure most of you already are.
i've known about some of this info before, but here some key points are in one article :

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,427347,00.html



Guns have become an important issue for Barack Obama’s campaign. Starting around the Pennsylvania primary, Obama and his campaign surrogates began strenuously assuring gun owners that he supports gun ownership, and it appears to be paying off. A poll ....


1998 where Obama supported a ban on the sale of all semi-automatic guns (a ban that would encompass the vast majority of guns sold in the U.S.),


Obama has come out for handgun bans as recently as this past February. ABC News’ local Washington, D.C., anchor, Leon Harris, asked Obama: "One other issue that's of great importance here in the district as well is gun control ... but you support the D.C. handgun ban."
Obama's simple response: "Right."
When Harris said "And you've said that it's constitutional," Obama again says "right" and is clearly seen on tape nodding his head "yes."


A statement to the Chicago Tribune by Obama’s campaign the previous November stated that,
"Obama believes the D.C. handgun law is constitutional."


Obama also served on the board of the Joyce Foundation, probably the largest private funder of anti-gun and pro-ban groups and research in the country. In total, the foundation gave $18.6 million to approximately 80 anti-gun efforts while he was on the board. For example, $1.5 million went to the Violence Policy Center, which puts out such claims as “Why America Needs to Ban Handguns.”


legislation he supported in the Illinois state senate that would have banned over 90 percent of gun stores in the country and eliminated gun stores in most states.



a 2004 vote Obama made in the Illinois state senate. An Associated Press article described the vote this way:
"He also opposed letting people use a self-defense argument if charged with violating local handgun bans by using weapons in their homes.
The bill was a reaction to a Chicago-area man who, after shooting an intruder, was charged with a handgun violation."


Obama voted for a bill that .... includes language of banning ammunition that “may be used in a handgun”


Obama has been very clear about what types of Justices he would and would not appoint to the Supreme Court.
Obama has said that he “profoundly disagree[s] with [Clarence Thomas’] interpretation of a lot of the Constitution." He has also been critical of Antonin Scalia, John Roberts and Samuel Alito.
Together these four justices provided four of the five votes to strike down the D.C. gun ban
...
Obama has pointed to Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, David Souter, and Stephen Breyer as models for the type of people he would appoint to the court.
Those justices provided three of the four votes that argued that there was no individual right to own a gun


"Increase Federal Taxes on Guns and Ammunition by 500 Percent" and "Close Down 90 Percent of Gun Shops in America" ...
Obama has indeed supported these policies in the past,
...
unable to get the Obama campaign to state what his current position was on these issues.
Obama clearly held these positions in the past and has never said that he has changed his mind on them. The very fact that the Obama campaign would not issue any statement disowning these previous positions would seem to imply that Obama still supported them.


(obama ) months earlier supported a ban on guns as constitutional
and who refused join the other 55 Senators who signed the friend of the court brief asking the Supreme Court to strike down the D.C. gun ban.
...
no presidential nominee for a major party has ever supported such widespread bans on guns and ammunition.

[ZephMan]

Once again I'm not surprised. I hate this fucker.

[SFVengeance82]

Once again I'm not surprised. I hate this fucker.

+1

[sp1ke]

Come on guys, it's Fox News :/

Here's what he actually wants to do:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/23/fact-check-does-obama-want-to-ban-guns-and-rifles/

[Jafis]

Well if you were Obama, and you knew how many people wanted to shoot you, a ban on guns might be something you'd like to talk about. :lol

[ZephMan]

Well if you were Obama, and you knew how many people wanted to shoot you, a ban on guns might be something you'd like to talk about. :lol

:lol

[ZephMan]

Come on guys, it's Fox News :/

Here's what he actually wants to do:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/23/fact-check-does-obama-want-to-ban-guns-and-rifles/

You're right, CNN is so much more trustworthy :rolleyes:

[esp_gaijin]

Come on guys, it's Fox News :/

Here's what he actually wants to do:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/23/fact-check-does-obama-want-to-ban-guns-and-rifles/

if ur making an ozzfan-style joke, then yeah funny haha.

if ur cereous, then i just learned ur iq = 60.

[sp1ke]

You're right, CNN is so much more trustworthy :rolleyes:

have you seen "Outfoxed" the movie? I used to watch Fox News every day (no lie) until I saw that movie.

[esp_gaijin]

have you seen "Outfoxed" the movie? I used to watch Fox News every day (no lie) until I saw that movie.

wow.

similarly good quote:

have you seen that movie that the lunar landings are faked and done in hollywood with special effects?

i used to drink tang, now i don't.

[Metallijosh]

IMO this is why he won't be the next president.
At least it's why he won't be getting my vote.

[sp1ke]

wow.

similarly good quote:

are you asserting that fox news is not admittedly heavily right biased? the originators of the "terrorist fist jab"?

[Dick Tater]

I really wouldn't have a problem with handguns being banned. Rifles and shotguns are a different story. You can go hunting with a rifle or a shotgun but what the fuck is up with a hand gun? Sure someone can get killed by a rifle or a shotgun but the hand gun, I feel, is more directed at killing a dude. It serves no other purpose.

[Gopherbassist]

Yep yep, make it so only criminals can defend themselves with more than a knife and less than a rifle. What a great fucking plan that is.

[Mr Pigwalk]

I wish guns were banned, but I also wish every american citizen would get a free sword of preference training how to use it.

Then muggings wouldn't be so lame, they'd be epic battles for honor.

[esp_gaijin]

are you asserting that fox news is not admittedly heavily right biased? the originators of the "terrorist fist jab"?

i have no idea what terrorist fisting is, and don't want to know.

sounds to me like you, like so many, see an episode of some rightwing nutbag who has a show on fox, and all of a sudden you claim the entire network is rightwing nutbags.




fascists...left....................center......... ...........right...fascists
...........obama............cnn.......foxNEWS..... ...................jerryfalwell

[Syrinx]

Nice hatchet job on the Fox article :rolleyes:

[hessian101]

are you asserting that fox news is not admittedly heavily right biased? the originators of the "terrorist fist jab"?

Everyone BUT fox Is Heavily Left oriented.

[emg32]

I seriously don't think he wants a complete ban on all handguns. That is all propaganda IMO. Most news programs take liberty at what they want to hear/report and what is actually stated by someone.

I think even Obama is smart enough to know that will never happen. Banning assult rifles and automatic weapons, I can see him being for that, but a total ban on handguns will never happen and IMO will never be tried in our lifetime. At least not here in the USA.

BTW, I don't really care for either canidate.

[esp_gaijin]

what the fuck is up with a hand gun?
the hand gun, I feel, is more directed at killing a dude.
It serves no other purpose.

*facepalm*

and a hammer's purpose is to drive a nail into wood.

the handgun is SUPPOSED to be used to shoot a human,
in self-defense,
that's their primary DESIGN INTENT.

you're free to oppose the use of guns for self defense if you choose,
but my god at least know that IS infact what handguns were designed for, with no apologies being made for it.


do you think it's okay to kill in self defense?

if so, you cannot be against handguns. a 70yr old lady cannot effectively stop a 6' 25yr old attacker using her fists, a shovel, a tire tool, etc.
That is the reason handguns exist; being small and frail doesn't stop you from having a right to live and stop an attacker, just because he's big and strong.

oh shit why do i bother tiping.

[esp_gaijin]

Nice hatchet job on the Fox article :rolleyes:

i posted the link so you can read the whole thing,
but the whole thing is long,
so i pointed out the parts that i felt are important,

feel free to do the same,
or post the whole article,

i did not mis quote a single aspect of anything in that article, ASSHOLE.

[esp_gaijin]

a total ban on handguns will never happen and IMO will never be tried in our lifetime. At least not here in the USA.


excuse me, are you not aware of washington dc since sometime in the mid 1970's?

yeah total handgun ban, that can never happen, in the usa.....OH SHIT, IT DID!

[Syrinx]

i posted the link so you can read the whole thing,
but the whole thing is long,
so i pointed out the parts that i felt are important,

feel free to do the same,
or post the whole article,

i did not mis quote a single aspect of anything in that article, ASSHOLE.

Oh I read the entire thing, and you cut out anything that could potentially be negative to your view JACKASS. Ooooh caps are scary!

[esp_gaijin]

if you read the article then you know that the only points not negative toward obama on the topic of handgun bans, were quotes from SUPPORTERS of obama who are LYING on his behalf,

and all their quotes were shown as to why they were bullshit,
so yeah i'm not going to requote LIES by ASSHOLES.

there, that's a lot of caps, i'm sure your pissing your panties by now.

dickweed. (there, i used small letters per your sensitivity ).

[john F. keyes]

Obama wants Change!

Canya Help A Nigga Get Elected!

[Syrinx]

dickweed. (there, i used small letters per your sensitivity ).

The only one that appears to be sensitive is you :lol

[Gopherbassist]

It's good to see a forum where not everyone is stuck on the left side of the isle. Diversity is good.

[Syrinx]

and all their quotes were shown as to why they were bullshit,
so yeah i'm not going to requote LIES by ASSHOLES.


The only lies are from Fox.. yeah he opposed the bill allowing handguns for self defense.. but did you actually dig in and see why?

The NRA bases this overheated claim on a vote Obama cast on March 24, 2004, in the Illinois state Senate. He was one of 20 who opposed SB 2165. That bill, which passed 38 - 20 and became law, did not make it a crime to use firearms for self-defense, however. Rather, it created a loophole for persons caught violating local gun registration laws.

It states that in any Illinois municipality where gun registration is required it shall be an "affirmative defense" if the person accused of violating the registration requirement can show that the weapon was used "in an act of self-defense or defense of another ... when on his or her land or in his or her abode or fixed place of business."

Letting the owner of an unregistered firearm escape the penalty for failing to register is one thing, but it's another thing entirely to make it a crime to use any firearm – registered or not – in self-defense.
The bill came about after Hale DeMar, of Wilmette, Ill., shot a burglar who had invaded his home. At the time, Wilmette had an ordinance that prohibited owning handguns.

[esp_gaijin]

The only one that appears to be sensitive is you :lol

nah. just gave you the replies you fully warranted with your posts.

i am willing and capable to give debate back and forth on a subject,
but i have to see an actual debate/question/etc. given to me first,

your first post in this thread was so incorrect and off-base it warrants no response other than what you got.

i'm willing and capable of "debate" as opposed to just arguing,
but you haven't given anything that meets that.

act like an asshole and guess what reply you receive?

discuss a topic with some info and accuracy, and you can receive it in return.

adios.

[Syrinx]

your first post in this thread was so incorrect and off-base it warrants no response other than what you got.

How was it so incorrect and off-base? You did post a hatchet job and I just gave you one small example of how. Run along now.. I mean, Adios.

[XY-SATAN]

I wish guns were banned, but I also wish every american citizen would get a free sword of preference training how to use it.

Then muggings wouldn't be so lame, they'd be epic battles for honor.

Though this idea is full of EPIC win and maybe a future screen play for a Quentin Tarantino movie?:hat:lol
Around here they won't let you have a large pen knife and bringing a Bic lighter on a plane is like carrying TNT around, so travel with a sword would be a bitch. :p

And brings a whole new idea to drama when it comes to a lost reservation! :lol

" Sorry sir, we’ve seemed to have lost your reservations?”

“You sir, insult my family honor “:|


WAAAAAaaAAAAAA!!!! *slices earlobe off attendant

“ Ok Ok, you’re on the freakin flight” :(:lol




.

[InVinoVeritasXXX]

I gotta say, I disagree with him on this definitely. How the fuck am I gonna overthrow the government if they're the only ones with guns? Seriously though, despite being an acid-dropping, fetus-killing, gay-orgy hosting liberal sleazebag, I 'm all for the second amendment and its protection. That's still not enough to make me want to vote Republican though, I don't have any guns, so them being banned would probably be to my advantage anyways. But I'm not voting, so who cares what I think?

[Ozzfun]

Fox News was the first channel to declare W. president back in 2000, and they were right. I'm guessing this is also accurate.

[MetalForBreakfast]

any thought to the argument that supposedly within 15 or 16 feet of a person with a knife you can supposedly actually draw a knife and stab that person repeatedly with a decent probability that they'll miss shooting you? I'm sure as hell not about to try and find out. Just wondering if anyone has heard this.

[Mr Pigwalk]

I have a sword but my wife won't let me hang it by the door for home defense. It's actually sharp too. It's my lifestyle/their deathstyle.

[ZephMan]

I wish guns were banned, but I also wish every american citizen would get a free sword of preference training how to use it.

Then muggings wouldn't be so lame, they'd be epic battles for honor.

:lol:lol

Hell yes!

[ZephMan]

left wings should pull their out of their vagina's and realize that criminals are still going to find guns even if their made illegal. And then a law abiding citizen will have to way to protect themselves. So if guns become illegal whats next? Knives? Pepper Spray?

[evilaudio]

Just to quickly clear something up for those of you who didn't know...
In the US we have the Second Amendment. This is arguably the most important amendment. It guarantees the peoples right to arm themselves for defense from tyranny in any form. This can mean criminals or our very own government.

"A well regulated Militia (1), being necessary to the security of a free State (2), the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed (3)."
In part one (1) we see reference to the Militia. The founding fathers purposefully specified Militia to designate the people's involvement, as the Militia is a loose group of ordinary citizenry armed against a common enemy. Please note that the Second Amendment makes no reference to a Continental Army or any Army of enlisted men at all. Some would argue that the 2nd Amendment gives the states the right to defend themselves, but they're fucking morons who should have paid attention in Jr High American History class. They should probably also grab a dictionary and look up Militia.
In part two (2) we see a "qualifier" referencing the maintenance of freedom. This section refers to the State (capitalized) rather than "a state", therefor meaning the country as a whole, not individual states. This section also implies the need to defend the State against an oppressive government.
In section three (3) there is a direct reference to "the right of the people", not a state or the State. You, as an American, have the direct right to arm yourselves against your government and anyone or anything meant to do you harm, and the 2nd Amendment guarantees you that right.

The issue is not hunting. The issue is not pistols. The issue isn't bolt action deer rifles or fully automatic assault weapons. The issue is your right to destroy your government should your government destroy your rights.

[Dr_Jihad]

I really don't know who to go for. John McCain seems like a dick with his Stuck up Bitch on a leash, While Obama seems like the Hip candidate with a white dude as his bitch. Point being? I fucking hate Sarah Palin. I don't care. I just dislike her with a passion.

[KH Guitar Freak]

I really wouldn't have a problem with handguns being banned. Rifles and shotguns are a different story. You can go hunting with a rifle or a shotgun but what the fuck is up with a hand gun? Sure someone can get killed by a rifle or a shotgun but the hand gun, I feel, is more directed at killing a dude. It serves no other purpose.

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard... :rollin

[KH Guitar Freak]

I gotta say, I disagree with him on this definitely. How the fuck am I gonna overthrow the government if they're the only ones with guns? Seriously though, despite being an acid-dropping, fetus-killing, gay-orgy hosting liberal sleazebag, I 'm all for the second amendment and its protection. That's still not enough to make me want to vote Republican though, I don't have any guns, so them being banned would probably be to my advantage anyways. But I'm not voting, so who cares what I think?

That's so flawed, I don't know where to even start... :rollin

[evilaudio]

That's so flawed, I don't know where to even start... :rollin
Sounds like we aught to take him gun shopping....

[Mr Pigwalk]

That's so flawed, I don't know where to even start... :rollin

In a way he has a point. In my new legislation those who don't have guns yet get first dibs on bladed weapons, while those who have many will be the last ones to get their blade and training. You want to get a handmade katana infused with souls of dead chinese gymnast and get trained by some japanese dude that used to teach gradeschool to Predators, or would you rather get a rusty fork and get trained by Wally, the dude who used to work at the car wash but went in late too many times?

[ham sandwich]

Democrats saying they will get rid of all guns, is like Republicans saying they will override Roe V Wade.

just BS to rally the base.

[XY-SATAN]

Like "guns", the "ESP board" doesn’t pown members, members pown themselves!:p:lol

[phil]

I wish guns were banned, but I also wish every american citizen would get a free sword of preference training how to use it.

Then muggings wouldn't be so lame, they'd be epic battles for honor.

Totally agree, and I'm completely serious.

[SuperDuperNaut]

just because the candidate is against guns doesn't mean that a bill would have the slightest chance of getting through Congress.........come on now lets all remember how the system works.........if obama got in its not like guns would all just disappear. Long as we all keep voting in congressmen and senators who like guns, we got nothing to worry about.

[ham sandwich]

just because the candidate is against guns doesn't mean that a bill would have the slightest chance of getting through Congress.........come on now lets all remember how the system works.........if obama got in its not like guns would all just disappear. Long as we all keep voting in congressmen and senators who like guns, we got nothing to worry about.

Democrats saying they will get rid of all guns, is like Republicans saying they will override Roe V Wade.

just BS to rally the base.;)

[guitarsatbmusic]

Is there a side debate of Fox News bias going on? If so, can I impart something from the other side of the globe? You know they say "Fair and Balanced", I used tot think they were just spoofing themselves, seriously! Then I realised I think they actually believe it. :eek:
Do viewers of Fox actually think it's not biased or is it just something people have grown to expect here and are equally miffed by the "Fair and Balanced" tag line?
I'm qualifying this by the fact I couldn't give two shits who wins the US Presidential election as it's not my country to worry about, and that the whole affair of a year or more to elect someone just to have an attempt at winning is quite perplexing. So I've zero vested interest, preconception or historical or current political leanings on my end. Having followed all this election hoopla for a year or so just via the only two main news services that exist here on cable from the US, Fox and CNN, I can see the bias on both sides.

[Ozzfun]

Misinformation is awesome.

[Yoshi]

Is there a side debate of Fox News bias going on? If so, can I impart something from the other side of the globe? You know they say "Fair and Balanced", I used tot think they were just spoofing themselves, seriously! Then I realised I think they actually believe it. :eek:
Do viewers of Fox actually think it's not biased or is it just something people have grown to expect here and are equally miffed by the "Fair and Balanced" tag line?
I'm qualifying this by the fact I couldn't give two shits who wins the US Presidential election as it's not my country to worry about, and that the whole affair of a year or more to elect someone just to have an attempt at winning is quite perplexing. So I've zero vested interest, preconception or historical or current political leanings on my end. Having followed all this election hoopla for a year or so just via the only two main news services that exist here on cable from the US, Fox and CNN, I can see the bias on both sides.

In other words, either way you're all fucked.

[Donting101]

In which states are citizens allowed to carry concealed rocket launchers?

[Heidi]

When did banning guns become a bad thing?

[Mutato]

When did banning guns become a bad thing?


Since it became our constitutional right to own one.

[Donting101]

When did banning guns become a bad thing?




http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Anne-Geddes.jpg

[Heidi]

Since it became our constitutional right to own one.

So, when somebody asks you why you should have a gun, the right answer is "because I can"? You don't think that is immature at all? There are loads of things one can do in life, doesn't mean that you have to. And just because it's a law, doesn't mean it ethical at all. Why should you have a gun? I see no reason. You shouldn't have to.

[Mutato]

So, when somebody asks you why you should have a gun, the right answer is "because I can"? You don't think that is immature at all? There are loads of things one can do in life, doesn't mean that you have to. And just because it's a law, doesn't mean it ethical at all. Why should you have a gun? I see no reason. You shouldn't have to.



:rollin

[Heidi]

Enjoy your school shootings and violence.

[ozzuk1]

Yeah you guys can do what the brittish govt did and really effectively ban handguns cause you know we no longer have handgun crime anymore, no wait it didnt work...

That's right lawbreakers are still getting handguns illegally...And there's still handgun crime...

[Mutato]

Enjoy your school shootings and violence.



:rollin


You are seriously one dumb bitch.

[ozzuk1]

I heard on the news that some killing happenned in Finland what was that caused by ohh yeah handguns...

[Heidi]

:rollin


You are seriously one dumb bitch.

You really are just a tad ignorant, you know that?

[Mutato]

You really are just a tad ignorant, you know that?


I think your posts in this thread has proved it is actually YOU that is ignorant. We already knew that but this just confirms it.

[Heidi]

I know we're different and all, but it doesn't strike you that the fact that so many own a gun in your country, might be the cause of a lot of violence and crime?

[Mutato]

I know we're different and all, but it doesn't strike you that the fact that so many own a gun in your country, might be the cause of a lot of violence and crime?

Moar ignorance.

[Pushead]

I know we're different and all, but it doesn't strike you that the fact that so many own a gun in your country, might be the cause of a lot of violence and crime?

It's the people that own guns illegally that cause the problems. ;)

[Ozzfun]

Entitlement causes school shootings, not guns.

[jet66]

Democrats saying they will get rid of all guns, is like Republicans saying they will override Roe V Wade.

just BS to rally the base.

/thread

[jet66]

So, when somebody asks you why you should have free speech, the right answer is "because I can"? You don't think that is immature at all? There are loads of things one can do in life, doesn't mean that you have to. And just because it's a law, doesn't mean it ethical at all. Why should you have free speech? I see no reason. You shouldn't have to.

So, when somebody asks you why you should have the right to vote, the right answer is "because I can"? You don't think that is immature at all? There are loads of things one can do in life, doesn't mean that you have to. And just because it's a law, doesn't mean it ethical at all. Why should you have the right to vote? I see no reason. You shouldn't have to.

So, when somebody asks you why you should have the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury, the right answer is "because I can"? You don't think that is immature at all? There are loads of things one can do in life, doesn't mean that you have to. And just because it's a law, doesn't mean it ethical at all. Why should you have the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury? I see no reason. You shouldn't have to.

Very good points, worth pondering.

[nameless]

People get shot in the UK all the time. Handguns have been illegal for a very fucking long time. The kind of people who commit gun related crime, clearly don't care wether they're allowed to carry a gun or not. It is unlikely that banning handguns will actually make a significant difference to gun related crimes.

[P-Zilla]

I wish guns were banned, but I also wish every american citizen would get a free sword of preference training how to use it.

Then muggings wouldn't be so lame, they'd be epic battles for honor.

I want a battle axe.

[nameless]

I want a battle axe.

http://www.sunpig.com/abi/images/2005/11/gimli.jpg

8o

[Mr Pigwalk]

People expect any kind of legislation to go into effect and do the job overnight or else they consider it a failure. IF a total gun ban ever came into effect (which it would never in the US) it would literally take DECADES if not more for it to ever show any kind of positive results. Same way in the UK. Give it 30-40 more years and you should start to see some kind of positive results. How long has it been going on for so far, like 10-15? (numbers pulled totally out of my ass).

It's kind of like a person in their 40's who's been overweight since high school signing up for a gym and expecting to lose 100 and turn into a body builder overnight. Not going to happen. Guns have been around and ingrained into society for way too long, a piece of paper signed couldn't get rid of them overnight, or in any time frame that wouldn't be called a political failure for decades.

Battle Axe is your Soupman, the body armor however is at your expense and is NOT a tax write off.

[Hmantooth]

I wish guns were banned, but I also wish every american citizen would get a free sword of preference training how to use it.

Then muggings wouldn't be so lame, they'd be epic battles for honor.

:rollin :rollin

Fucking awesome! Thats also a excellent idea as well!

People get shot in the UK all the time. Handguns have been illegal for a very fucking long time. The kind of people who commit gun related crime, clearly don't care wether they're allowed to carry a gun or not. It is unlikely that banning handguns will actually make a significant difference to gun related crimes.


I had an argument with a band ember about htis. I used to be very anti gun, specifically Handguns. But in the last few years iv become quite supprtive of them due to the kind of crime that has been spreading through the UK. My friends argument was that, with handguns baned over here, our gun related crime is much much lower then that of the US. I pointed out that the population of the US is HUGE compared to the UK, yet he believes that the statistics still balance out in the UKs favour when comparing the popuation to crime percentage,

Personally, i still believe that innocent people should have the right to defend themselves agaist an attacker, and a gun levels the playing field and allows them to do that.

[spawnofthesith]

IF a total gun ban ever came into effect (which it would never in the US)

It already has in Washington DC

[DWH87]

People get shot in the UK all the time.

Add stab to that too

If i could legally own a handgun in the UK i would without a shadow of a doubt.

I live in one of the more quiet parts of england but over the last couple of years some rough shit has been happening. People are walking around my city carrying illegal guns already. I see keeping my family safe as a top priority.

[P-Zilla]

http://www.sunpig.com/abi/images/2005/11/gimli.jpg

8o

Ansley? Is that you!?

[Mr Pigwalk]

It already has in Washington DC

That's not a total gun ban and the idea of banning weapons in a single area is fucking ridiculous as that gun ban has proved. I don't think a complete gun ban in the US would be any better, our borders are too big. I think it COULD work in the UK eventually (40-50 years) because it's a giant fucking island. Easier to control what gets in and what doesn't.

[nameless]

Add stab to that too

If i could legally own a handgun in the UK i would without a shadow of a doubt.

I live in one of the more quiet parts of england but over the last couple of years some rough shit has been happening. People are walking around my city carrying illegal guns already. I see keeping my family safe as a top priority.

Yeah man, I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere, and the police just let the scum get on with it. Its pathetic. Last week, I saw a bloke getting his head kicked in, right in front of two coppers, who just stood there doing nothing.

And of course if you defend yourself, you get the book thrown at you. Someone who lives near me got jailed for 18 months for assault, after he knocked out some **** who was burgling his house. :x

[Mutato]

:rollin :rollin

Fucking awesome! Thats also a excellent idea as well!




I had an argument with a band ember about htis. I used to be very anti gun, specifically Handguns. But in the last few years iv become quite supprtive of them due to the kind of crime that has been spreading through the UK. My friends argument was that, with handguns baned over here, our gun related crime is much much lower then that of the US. I pointed out that the population of the US is HUGE compared to the UK, yet he believes that the statistics still balance out in the UKs favour when comparing the popuation to crime percentage,

Personally, i still believe that innocent people should have the right to defend themselves agaist an attacker, and a gun levels the playing field and allows them to do that.


You mean the police aren't around to protect you guys at all times?!?!?!

[Mutato]

Yeah man, I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere, and the police just let the scum get on with it. Its pathetic. Last week, I saw a bloke getting his head kicked in, right in front of two coppers, who just stood there doing nothing.



Very interesting.

Most anti gun folks will tell you that you don't need to protect yourself as that is the job of the police.

[Hmantooth]

You mean the police aren't around to protect you guys at all times?!?!?!

They used to be. Once upon a tim ewe had a law system that worked. Now it punishes the victims more then the criminals.

The Police used to be quite a powerful detterant in the UK - which is why i felt that guns were not needed. My view was that owning a gun could potentially cause yo umor eproblems. But with the way violent crime has developed in this country, id welcome handgun owership very warmly now. As i pointed out to my band mate, id rather be shot then beaten to death over the course of day.

[Alex WK]

I know we're different and all, but it doesn't strike you that the fact that so many own a gun in your country, might be the cause of a lot of violence and crime?

I don't see a relation between the availability of guns and the mindset of a criminal. If someone is set out to hurt/kill someone they'll do it with or without a gun. If you ban guns do you honestly think the law abiding criminals will hand their firearms in and trade them for swords/knives? Why do we keep hearing news from Britain about violence involving knives? Could it be be the fact that so many own knives in Britain? You should ban that as well!
Why do you keep ignoring the crime statistics of places where crime rate has gone up as a result of a gun ban? You don't think in no way that taking defense from the common citizen will make them a easier target?

BTW,you live in Oslo...what's happening here? You don't have guns.
Or does your theory of more guns = more crime not apply here?

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/03/08/Oslo_struggling_with_major_crime_wave/UPI-10741205004523/

[Mutato]

Alex WK is the man!


Recent statistics show that in 2007, an estimated 10,600 crimes took place in Oslo, tagging it with the highest reported crime ratio in all of Scandinavia, Aftenposten reported Saturday.

The capital's crime rate four times that that of New York, where 22 crimes occurred in 2007 for every 1,000 residents.



:rollin


Where's Miss Know-it-all to comment on this?

[Hmantooth]

You don't think in no way that taking defense from the common citizen will make them a easier target?


I think the idea is that if there are less guns available then there will be less crime involving them. That was the belief i held up until about a year ago.

Then i realised that theres no way of stopping criminals getting firearms, whether they are banned or not, so taking them away from the public just meas were leaving the criminals better armed and making ourselves easier targets, as you said.

[Mutato]

I think the idea is that if there are less guns available then there will be less crime involving them. That was the belief i held up until about a year ago.

Then i realised that theres no way of stopping criminals getting firearms, whether they are banned or not, so taking them away from the public just meas were leaving the criminals better armed and making ourselves easier targets, as you said.


I'm guessing that someone along the way, maybe even someone here, told you that would be the case.

[spz]

Welcome to Annoying Town.

[Hmantooth]

I'm guessing that someone along the way, maybe even someone here, told you that would be the case.

I remember butting heads with you about the issue way back then, and you were quite right. That was back when i had faith in my country and its laws. Heh, the dreams of the young.....

[DWH87]

This is an great example of the people who protect us.

An investigation has been launched after a police firearms specialist left a loaded gun in a Starbucks cafe in central London.

The officer, who has reportedly provided personal protection for the former prime minister Tony Blair, left the pistol in the toilets after she visited the coffee shop last week. The gun was found by a member of the public.

[Ozzfun]

In that movie The Strangers, there were all bad people in the house. They had a shotgun, but it didn't work.

[exhibit-sbt]

Criminals have guns either way, banning anything just causes more illegal activities, also, I'd like to keep my constitutional right.

I'd like to see these politicians focus on something more useful, like drunk driving which killed more people this year alone than the entire Iraq war...

[Ozzfun]

I love how people get so upset about this tired debate. Nothing is going to happen to your guns, people.

[DWH87]

You can buy a legal shotgun in england for £50.

[ozzuk1]

And that movie also sucked, bear in mind it was his dad's shotgun and he obviously wasent competant with using it.

Plus it was crappy movie...

If that was close to being real, then those freaks would have either been gunned down or the people would have called the cops after the little girl showed up again...

[Heidi]

Alex WK is the man!






:rollin


Where's Miss Know-it-all to comment on this?

The usa - norway situation isn't really the matter here is it?
http://reasons-and-opinions.blogspot.com/2007/02/america-and-gun-violence.html
The number here is not nearly as low as it should be. But clearly, you have the most gun related deaths in the world. And all those people, do they deserve to die because of this said right?

Theft is the most usual form of crime here, has nothing to do with guns...

The police don't usually carry guns either, and that makes them more approachable.


Maybe we report crimes more often as well?


Thing is, if there are guns, they will get used. Just look at Finland.

[jet66]

You mean the police aren't around to protect you guys at all times?!?!?!

In a case of mistaken identity, when these dudes just stopped and threatened us during a get together, saying they'd be back with guns and more people, we called the 911 and reported it. The dudes showed up again in about 10 minutes. Thank God the cops were able to show up over an hour later. "We've been really busy tonight."

Fortunately, the dudes finally realized they had threatened the wrong people, and things were cleared up before anyone got hurt.

[Heidi]

Welcome to Annoying Town.

Haha, yeah..

[DWH87]

The usa - norway situation isn't really the matter here is it?


Nice way of backing out :lol

[Blazer]

TRV3xA9Zcds

[Donting101]

You can buy a legal shotgun in england for £50.
where?8o


I think in the USA they should actually give out the first hand gun to the over-65's if they don't have one already, because they can't afford it or are too scared to buy one, for example. But most importantly for any gun owner (especially hand guns), is that they get proper training to handle them when the time comes that they may need to use it. what’s the point in an OAP owning a nice shiny hand cannon if she aims for shit and has no idea what she's doing with it, potentially shooting the wrong person, especially when in a state of 'excitement'. Education about guns and proper training would be the key - and should be available to all IMO. I know the USA likes to think of itself as a nation of soldiers ready to defend its land if the king of England should try and invade again - but there isn’t much point if half are not even trained to use their weapons!

I think the UK should stick to its guns (excuse the pun) and keep hand guns illegal, as it is gradually getting better (although knife crime is thru the roof :lol) and eventually hand gun crime will almost be phased out. (Its not phased out yet as pig said, as we still have annual amnesties where people can anonymously hand in their old hand guns). But if they should ever reintroduce hand guns, then as long as there is proper education and training in place AVAILABLE TO ALL, and to dispel improper use and general ignorance, it shouldn’t work out too badly.

Heidi has her head in the clouds, Buddha bless her.

[esp_gaijin]

Democrats saying they will get rid of all guns, is like Republicans saying they will override Roe V Wade.

just BS to rally the base.

that sounds like it's true, but seriously ham it isn't,

how can you explain dc's all out handgun ban since i think like 1976 or something? forgive my ignorance on year it started, i thought it was mid 70s,
at any rate, for many many years dc has had an all out handgun ban.

2nd example - do you have any idea how strict and fascist the gun rules are for the entire state of illinois? thanks to the ruling powers in only one city - chicago.

3rdly - the double-standard state, yours - california,
where you and me would not even at all be allowed to own:
- a 15 round mag for a pistol (any mag higher than 10 rds )
- a concealed carry permit
yet in this same state rich connected celebs and politicos CAN have those things.


THOSE are glaring examples of just what govt can and will do when we don't fight the assault on our freedoms.

so yes i am very concerned about what obama could do if pres.


a lesser but critically important last example because we are talking about the presidency and its effect on all 50 states -
the laughably anti-effective bill clinton bans on "assault" weapons and "magazines over 10rds ",
those things happened due to him signing it into action.


i wish it was just rallying the troups b.s., however it is not, it is a very real danger on our freedoms.

[esp_gaijin]

They used to be. Once upon a tim ewe had a law system that worked. Now it punishes the victims more then the criminals.

The Police used to be quite a powerful detterant in the UK - which is why i felt that guns were not needed. My view was that owning a gun could potentially cause yo umor eproblems. But with the way violent crime has developed in this country, id welcome handgun owership very warmly now. As i pointed out to my band mate, id rather be shot then beaten to death over the course of day.

good post, thanks,
now that is a european opinion on guns i can completely comprehend and understand why someone would feel that way.

note this: in the US for many decades citizens found it nearly impossible to get a concealed carry permit;
but in mid 1990's many states flipped on that issue and began allowing everyday citizens to get ccw's;
the reason why the dramatic change in opinion across our country?
it was brought on by the high amount of gang shootings in los angeles and similar areas, and everyday citizens were enraged at not being allowed to defend themself, so the tide turned and many states began voting for ccw for regular people.


now, a person like me felt that ccw should never have been defacto-banned to law abiding everyday people,
and here is a critical piece of info: the reason why the usa began not allowing everyday people to carry guns began in the 1940s in southern states when black people were SUCCESSFULLY defending their lives against murderous KKK members,
and the KKK infiltrated and influenced public laws to the extent of taking away legal right for these blacks (and with it everyone else as well ) to be allowed to carry guns.

THAT is the reason why ccw became defacto-banned for everyday law-abiding people. that point never gets addressed when this topic comes up in the media, and it should; for all the other bullshit cases al sharpton and jesse jackson clamor about, they've never once mentioned this reality. i truly wonder why.

[Piney Hills Music]

I personally think a ban on handguns is the greatest idea in the world.....


ON PAPER..

but you cant do it in a society that has such a plethora of handguns already in society.

look at nations that dont allow them.. crime rates are way less..

but I dont think that a ban on hand guns makes sense in the US...

[TeXXasFrontman]

my guns get taken from my cold dead body.

simple as that.

[Hmantooth]

I personally think a ban on handguns is the greatest idea in the world.....


ON PAPER..



I agree - if there was a way of eliminating all handguns from EVERYBODY, thats the CRIMINALS as well as the law abiding citizens, then id be all for it.

But in the absence of that possibility, i think every man and woman should have the right to defend themselves effectively. Even if a criminal is coming at u with 'just' a knife, id feel better knwing my parents or girlfriend were aremed with a gun.

[Mr Pigwalk]

How long has the handgun ban been in effect in the UK?

(I'd look it up but I don't want to)

[esp_gaijin]

I personally think a ban on handguns is the greatest idea in the world.....


ON PAPER..


look at nations that dont allow them.. crime rates are way less..


but what are the freedoms like in those countries?
are you talking about places like china? former iraq under hussein? north korea?
i would acknowledge those 3 countries (well maybe not iraq so much ) had a govt/public system overall that operated pretty smoothly,
however everyday people there can't
- watch what they want on tv
- visit where they want on the internet
- post their opinions in forums like this one as i'm doing right now
and in some cases they can't
- have a girl child because the govt wants more sons and less daughters

sound pretty nuts? i'm sure you've seen enough news reports to know i'm not making that stuff up, i'm just pointing it out.

yes a govt who is all powerful like china, n.korea, etc., might be more capable of protecing its citizens from criminals IF it chooses to do so (notice current russia is not choosing to do so, all the lack of human rights and none of the benefits from "order" ),
but govt's that are all-powerful totally live by a double-standard.

the leader of n.korea is allowed to watch hollywood movies, porno, drink scotch, carry a gun, etc.;
none of his everyday citizens are allowed any of those things.

sorry no thanks for me, all govt's consist of humans and there is no human or group of humans so trustworthy they can be given all-power and they then choose to be fair and equal to everyone. it simply will never happen ever in humankind's existence; history proves it never happens that way.

regardless of self-defense, this point about keeping our govt in-check is really the primary reason for the right to bear arms.
the perfect example to always point to is hitler. when he came into power citizens were allowed to have guns; he first took their guns away,
and then he completely ran the entire country as he alone chose to. who could stop him? german citizens and jews living there didn't stop hitler,
britain, the usa, and some allies stopped him.

with guns.

[Blazer]

id rather carry one of those taser-guns that shoots the electrodes at the person. you are fucked if there is more than one person though :(

[Ozzfun]

Gaijin, where are all of your gay jokes? Why aren't they in this thread?

[Kutje Lik Andijvie]

I honestly don't understand the cultural significance of guns in the U.S. It's been explained to me countless times, and I always nod politely, but I just don't get it. This is why I never comment on the issue.

[Ozzfun]

I honestly don't understand the cultural significance of guns in the U.S. It's been explained to me countless times, and I always nod politely, but I just don't get it. This is why I never comment on the issue.

It helps us keep those goddamned blacks and gays in line.

[pmetal]

It helps us keep those goddamned blacks and gays in line.

Don't forget the one-legged transgenders.

[Mutato]

Whether you own a gun or not you should be concerned about your RIGHT to own one being taken away.

[Heidi]

my guns get taken from my cold dead body.

simple as that.

Hey! It's cold dead hands!

[Ozzfun]

Whether you own a gun or not you should be concerned about your RIGHT to own one being taken away.

It won't happen. Never. Unless Patriot Act: Part Two is passed.

[Kutje Lik Andijvie]

Whether you own a gun or not you should be concerned about your RIGHT to own one being taken away.

Like I said, countless times.

[Hmantooth]

Like I said, countless times.

If someone attacked u with a stick, and you defended yourself with a stick, and were then prosecuted for doing so, would you be pissed of?

I would be.

[esp_gaijin]

you are fucked if there is more than one person though :(

i was the victim of nearly daily assaults and attacks for a period of 7 years,

i was never attacked by one person.

[esp_gaijin]

Gaijin, where are all of your gay jokes? Why aren't they in this thread?

teehee,

i'm being super cereal, can't you tell?

you handsome man you.

[Ozzfun]

teehee,

i'm being super cereal, can't you tell?

you handsome man you.

Yeah but you've sprayed your gayness all over other serious threads. Someone needs to pull the trigger of your love gun on this one. ;)

[Skin N. Bones]

Yeah but you've sprayed your gayness all over other serious threads. Someone needs to pull the trigger of your love gun on this one. ;)

Do you mean, shoot a load?

[Mutato]

Yeah but you've sprayed your gayness all over other serious threads. Someone needs to pull the trigger of your love gun on this one. ;)


I said "Honey that ain't no pistol!"

[mikethepirate]

Funny how the people that complain about our government having too much power are the first to give up our only form of self-defense against a tyrannical government.

And for those who say that our guns are not going anywhere anytime soon, automatic weapons have been banned before and will certainly be banned again if Obama becomes president. He will have the majority in congress as well, which will make it all the more easier.

Honestly, it doesn't matter anyway. Our rights have be restricted so much that we couldn't put up a fight if we had to :(

My intentions are not to attacking anyone. In fact, I'm more sad than anger about it.

[jet66]

I got an idea of something we can do with a gun. Sink load and fire till the empire reaps what they've sown. Shoot shoot shoot till their minds are open, shoot shoot shoot till their eyes are closed. Push push push till we get some motion, push push push till the bombs explode.

[SuperDuperNaut]

;)

shit man, didn't even see that. respect.

[KH Guitar Freak]

where?8o


I think in the USA they should actually give out the first hand gun to the over-65's if they don't have one already, because they can't afford it or are too scared to buy one, for example. But most importantly for any gun owner (especially hand guns), is that they get proper training to handle them when the time comes that they may need to use it. what’s the point in an OAP owning a nice shiny hand cannon if she aims for shit and has no idea what she's doing with it, potentially shooting the wrong person, especially when in a state of 'excitement'. Education about guns and proper training would be the key - and should be available to all IMO. I know the USA likes to think of itself as a nation of soldiers ready to defend its land if the king of England should try and invade again - but there isn’t much point if half are not even trained to use their weapons!

I think the UK should stick to its guns (excuse the pun) and keep hand guns illegal, as it is gradually getting better (although knife crime is thru the roof :lol) and eventually hand gun crime will almost be phased out. (Its not phased out yet as pig said, as we still have annual amnesties where people can anonymously hand in their old hand guns). But if they should ever reintroduce hand guns, then as long as there is proper education and training in place AVAILABLE TO ALL, and to dispel improper use and general ignorance, it shouldn’t work out too badly.

Heidi has her head in the clouds, Buddha bless her.

Maybe if you pop her inflated thighs, she might come back down to earth... 8o

[Kutje Lik Andijvie]

her inflated thighs

Let's see what you're banging, shall we?

[Grynch]

You're right, CNN is so much more trustworthy :rolleyes:

As bad as CNN is Faux is way worse. The way they painted Ron Paul should be enough to stop you from watching that network.

[Ozzfun]

My dad has collected quite a few really nice guns over the years. It helps that he is a cop because I think he has greater access to guns. Don't quote me on that though, but I think it made it easier to get different types of permits. With every presidential shift, he worries that some of his guns might need to be destroyed, but it has never happened yet.

[DWH87]

where?8o

I know diddly squat about guns but this (http://www.guntrader.co.uk/) looks like a good place to arm yourself up.

[esp_gaijin]

As bad as CNN is Faux is way worse. The way they painted Ron Paul should be enough to stop you from watching that network.

that's the mentality i don't comprehend at all,

so you're saying they did biased unfair picture of rue paul,
and thus you toss te whole network out the window.

have you ever seen Glenn Beck's show?
he would probably seem "right wing" to any leftwing or left-leaning person,
but in truth he's really more like people like me - INDEPENDENT, and he rags on nearly every politico, and has been trashing dubya for the past year i've known about his show and seen it.

someone left-oriented who stumbles on his show, and has YOUR mentality and reaction about it, would instantly say "i am never watching or trusting anything on that network at all, ever, period the end.".

















glenn beck is on cnn.





this is my point on that - the topic of tossing out an entire network because you dislike one show or one commentator or even just one report they did.

i don't have a lot of time to watch/read any news, but what little i see with fox TV shows vs. fox online news, the tv shows range from middle to right, and the online news doesn't lean right, it's simply the only online major news that actually reports on certain stories that cnn and more leftwing than cnn places flat out WONT' EVEN PASS ON THE INFO. all the stories i'm referring to come from THE AP, and each network picks what they want to report. so many stories cnn flat out doesn't even put on their webpage, but fox does, it's really damn insidious of cnn when you start looking into this closely. THAT is infact why i grew to favor fox NEWS over cnn, because the middle-of-the-road stories are covered on both,
but anything that sheds good light on guns in self-defense, doesn't even get posted on cnn.com

so, is that "fair" of cnn to refuse to post such stories? hardly. i know who's the grossly more biased between the two, and it has nothing to do with my own personal opinions on the topics.

[Heidi]

Let's see what you're banging, shall we?
Pics or it didn't happen, status: didn't happen

That's more like it. :D

[esp_gaijin]

http://bbs.espguitars.com/image.php?u=273&dateline=1222368094


:confused: why is ur avatar a russian pedro bear?

[Heidi]

:confused: why is ur avatar a russian pedro bear?

Oh, that's comrade care bear.

[Graham Nicholson]

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.



Pretty straightforward.

As far as I'm concerned any legislation against owning firearms is unconstitutional, including licensing and registration.

[Leviathan]

lM3oww9Vk-c

[Heidi]

ZOMG a muslim! -That is ridiculous.
Who cares what religious views you have?

Seems like you guys love fear. You need your guns, because you fear everybody. It's the same with everything else, because you're right aren't you, and when people are different, you fear them.

[KH Guitar Freak]

ZOMG a muslim! -That is ridiculous.
Who cares what religious views you have?

Seems like you guys love fear. You need your guns, because you fear everybody. It's the same with everything else, because you're right aren't you, and when people are different, you fear them.

:lol

[Yoshi]

lM3oww9Vk-c

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

That's great. I said it before, either way you vote you're fucked, just like Western Australia was this election.

[craigercj]

Ahh fuck.. I missed a whole bunch of a gun argument!!

[Donting101]

you didn't, its still here!

just go back and quote 100's of posts and throw your own log onto the fire

[Ozzfun]

ZOMG a muslim! -That is ridiculous.
Who cares what religious views you have?

Seems like you guys love fear. You need your guns, because you fear everybody. It's the same with everything else, because you're right aren't you, and when people are different, you fear them.

There is some truth to that. I think we have more violent crimes than other places due to the US sense of entitlement and government handouts for slobs, and that adds to it.

[Mutato]

ZOMG a muslim! -That is ridiculous.
Who cares what religious views you have?

What the fuck??!!?

Is anyone else reading this garbage she posts?

[Donting101]

What the fuck??!!?

Is anyone else reading this garbage she posts?

i'm not

[Ozzfun]

If religion is going to influence my government, it better be good ol fashioned Christian values. I feel more safe knowing that George Bush and Sarah Palin speak to our Caucasion God with proper hygene before sending us to war.


Oh, wait. Obama isn't Muslim. Someone better bitch about misinformation! I think this is all Tina Fey's fault.

[Corrigan]

The US is just about the closest you can get to a theocracy without actually being a theocracy.

[Ozzfun]

The US is just about the closest you can get to a theocracy without actually being a theocracy.

And you're just about the closest us Americans can get to chatting with a smelly Eurotrash troll with a thesaurus without acquiring a passport.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/redrobin72/troll-2.gif

[Mutato]

And you're just about the closest us Americans can get to chatting with a smelly Eurotrash troll with a thesaurus without acquiring a passport.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/redrobin72/troll-2.gif



:rollin

[esp_gaijin]

anti-gun blah blah blah anti-gun anti-gun take all guns away from civilians blah blah blah etc.

...waaaiit.... Hitler....Heidi....... NOW i get it!

[esp_gaijin]

And you're just about the closest us Americans can get to chatting with a smelly Eurotrash troll with a thesaurus without acquiring a passport.



:lol:lol:lol:lol

[Kutje Lik Andijvie]

The holier-than-thou attitude of Europeans when it comes to the U.S. continues to perplex and disgust me -- and I'm saying this as a European. You may not like the way they do things, and you may think your way is better, but who the fuck are you to lecture? They love their guns, so what? As long as they do it over there, I don't see what business it is of yours. Get over yourselves already.

[pmetal]

The holier-than-thou attitude of Europeans when it comes to the U.S. continues to perplex and disgust me -- and I'm saying this as a European. You may not like the way they do things, and you may think your way is better, but who the fuck are you to lecture? They love their guns, so what? As long as they do it over there, I don't see what business it is of yours. Get over yourselves already.

werd

Now, if YOUR leaders could just convince OUR leaders that marijuana is okay and should be legal, then we'll all be good to go.

:hat

[Piney Hills Music]

but what are the freedoms like in those countries?
are you talking about places like china? former iraq under hussein? north korea?
i would acknowledge those 3 countries (well maybe not iraq so much ) had a govt/public system overall that operated pretty smoothly,
however everyday people there can't
- watch what they want on tv
- visit where they want on the internet
- post their opinions in forums like this one as i'm doing right now
and in some cases they can't
- have a girl child because the govt wants more sons and less daughters

sound pretty nuts? i'm sure you've seen enough news reports to know i'm not making that stuff up, i'm just pointing it out.

yes a govt who is all powerful like china, n.korea, etc., might be more capable of protecing its citizens from criminals IF it chooses to do so (notice current russia is not choosing to do so, all the lack of human rights and none of the benefits from "order" ),
but govt's that are all-powerful totally live by a double-standard.

the leader of n.korea is allowed to watch hollywood movies, porno, drink scotch, carry a gun, etc.;
none of his everyday citizens are allowed any of those things.

sorry no thanks for me, all govt's consist of humans and there is no human or group of humans so trustworthy they can be given all-power and they then choose to be fair and equal to everyone. it simply will never happen ever in humankind's existence; history proves it never happens that way.

regardless of self-defense, this point about keeping our govt in-check is really the primary reason for the right to bear arms.
the perfect example to always point to is hitler. when he came into power citizens were allowed to have guns; he first took their guns away,
and then he completely ran the entire country as he alone chose to. who could stop him? german citizens and jews living there didn't stop hitler,
britain, the usa, and some allies stopped him.

with guns.


no, I agree with you...

I am saying that countries that dont allow HANDguns... have a lower violent crime rate.
I think that we should keep the right to bare arms. I am also saying that on paper no handguns is the better way (as in most violent crimes are commited with them as they are easier to hide)
Banning handguns would never work in the USA, as there are too many of them here, and if we took them away, criminals would still have them, and its faster to shoot someone with a pistol than a big ole shotgun.

[Blazer]

The holier-than-thou attitude of Europeans when it comes to the U.S. continues to perplex and disgust me -- and I'm saying this as a European. You may not like the way they do things, and you may think your way is better, but who the fuck are you to lecture? They love their guns, so what? As long as they do it over there, I don't see what business it is of yours. Get over yourselves already.

exactly. when a government threatens to destroy a country's civil liberties they have the right to disagree with it and with anyone else who thinks otherwise.


while it is good to have an opinion sometimes people need to keep it to themselves.

[KH Guitar Freak]

It's ok to have a different opinion, but what I don't understand is that many Europeans act like they are holier than thou...

[mikethepirate]

It's ok to have a different opinion, but what I don't understand is that many Europeans act like they are holier than thou...

No Wai! Only us Conservative Christian Americans are holier than thou and you can't take that away from us! We are the ONLY group that shoves our beliefs down the throats of others!

The best lesson I've learned from being a Christian is that if I concentrate more on my faults, I care less about others'. I think Jesus said it perfectly when He asked how a person with a log in their eye remove a speck in another's.

[Mutato]

I accidentally put my log in some chick's eye once. I swear it was an accident.

[mikethepirate]

I accidentally put my log in some chick's eye once. I swear it was an accident.

Ya, I bet it was............................................... ..................

:p

[Skin N. Bones]

Well spoken, Mr.Mike.

[nameless]

The holier-than-thou attitude of Europeans when it comes to the U.S. continues to perplex and disgust me.

I agree, but it goes goes both ways.

[P-Zilla]

What the fuck??!!?

Is anyone else reading this garbage she posts?

Afraid so...

[KH Guitar Freak]

Ya, I bet it was............................................... ..................

:p

You mean the chick... 8o

[mikethepirate]

I agree, but it goes goes both ways.

I agree, and that is why it has always happened and will continue to happen. People are so caught up in what someone else is doing that they are overlooking their own problems. The thing that makes it worse is that EVERYONE does it whether or not they admit it.


edit: You mean the chick...
Nah, I was referring to the log part. I'm pretty sure Mutato meant speck :lol

[KH Guitar Freak]

Mike, your fly is down...

Oh shit, mine is down too... 8o

[mikethepirate]

Mike, your fly is down...

Oh shit, mine is down too... 8o

Dude, I don't like where this is going 8o

[Mutato]

I'm pretty sure Mutato meant speck


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/vankrol/paulawb3.jpg

[mikethepirate]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/vankrol/paulawb3.jpg



:rollin

[Ozzfun]

I agree, but it goes goes both ways.

Umm. I've NEVER seen an incident on this board where US members posted condescending, holier than thou bullshit about a European country's people, leaders, or laws an dpolitics.

Go ahead, prove me wrong. Otherwise shut the fuck up and go back to espguitars.co.uk.

[Kutje Lik Andijvie]

it goes goes both ways.

Except Americans don't bother to comment on Europe, because they don't care what we're doing. Europeans, on the other hand, are obsessed with what Americans are doing, and feel the compulsive need to set them straight. There is a difference.

[Matt Parsons]

Umm. I've NEVER seen an incident on this board where US members posted condescending, holier than thou bullshit about a European country's people, leaders, or laws an dpolitics.

Go ahead, prove me wrong. Otherwise shut the fuck up and go back to espguitars.co.uk.

France? :lol

Don't get me wrong, they're definitely surrender eating cheese monkeys.

[Guitarslingerans]

I have posted in this thread.



-Ans-

[nameless]

Umm. I've NEVER seen an incident on this board where US members posted condescending, holier than thou bullshit about a European country's people, leaders, or laws an dpolitics.

Go ahead, prove me wrong. Otherwise shut the fuck up and go back to espguitars.co.uk.

Becasue Europeans are biggots. Probably the most open minded Europeans are Brits, but that's probably just because they took over the world and opened their borders. Even they are biggoted.

Gopherbassist, I'm assuming he's American. And this is quoted from a thread dedicated to berating the French, which I enjoyed.

I'm not looking to start shit dude, calm down.

[Kutje Lik Andijvie]

France? :lol

France is special. Everybody hates them.

[jet66]

Hey, I don't hate the French. (Maybe some French attitudes, but I hate some American attitudes as well.) One thing I like about them is they are still building and using nuclear power plants. Kudos to them, I think they set a great example with that, one we really need to consider here in the US.

[Heidi]

The holier-than-thou attitude of Europeans when it comes to the U.S. continues to perplex and disgust me -- and I'm saying this as a European. You may not like the way they do things, and you may think your way is better, but who the fuck are you to lecture? They love their guns, so what? As long as they do it over there, I don't see what business it is of yours. Get over yourselves already.

I get your point.
But they aren't doing that to every country they don't approve of? South America? Iraq? Afghanistan? Soviet Union?
I'm not saying that they're innocent, but is it always Captain America's job? That's why people are annoyed, their government interfere a bit more than they should. And I agree with you. When they can't run their own country, can't they just keep it in their own country then? I don't approve of their laws, and that Guantanamo business is filthy as hell. Human rights ftw!


But peace out.

[Col.Kurtz]

excuse me, are you not aware of washington dc since sometime in the mid 1970's?

yeah total handgun ban, that can never happen, in the usa.....OH SHIT, IT DID!

The Supreme Court overturned DC's gun ban a couple months ago (DC vs. Heller).Within ONE week of the SC's ruling, the Democrats and police that rule over DC peasants instituted new super-strict gun registration laws that still make it nearly impossible to own guns in DC.DC now considers any firearm that can accept a magazine a "machinegun".Dick Heller has filed another new lawsuit against Washington DC since the Supreme Court ruling.Makes for very interesting reading if you follow gun laws or are naive enough to think democrats aren't a bunch of lying snakes that don't want ALL guns banned.

[nameless]

I get your point.
But they aren't doing that to every country they don't approve of? South America? Iraq? Afghanistan? Soviet Union?

Do you own a map?

[Heidi]

Do you own a map?

Jesus, you're funny, kinda though you would understand it anyway ;)
My aunt is from El Salvador, they moved to Venezuela when she was about 13.

[Kutje Lik Andijvie]

But they aren't doing that to every country they don't approve of? South America? Iraq? Afghanistan? Soviet Union?

I'm not getting into this discussion; it makes my stomach hurt. Suffice to say I don't agree with you.

[jet66]

Heidi, let me give you a little piece of geopolitical wisdom-

There are two types of governments in this world: Ones that are obviously greedy and corrupt, and ones that are better at hiding it. Once you embrace that tenet, the world makes a lot more sense.

[KH Guitar Freak]

Right...

And the same goes for the fact that many Europeans would bitch about America is that they don't do enough to help other countries... :rolleyes:

[MetalForBreakfast]

Word. I used to say I was moderate, but I don't think there's much denying that I'm decently liberal on the majority of political issues. But to anybody who isn't from America, you're talking out of your ass if you're saying there's no point to us being able to have guns, regardless of the size of the gun. I agree that every citizen doesn't need a belt-fed machine gun with anti-tank depleted uranium bullets. But we're talking about handguns. In whatever tiny ass country in Europe you live in chances are you are mostly ethnically and culturally 99.9% the same as everybody else in your country. In America, you have people from fucking everywhere, and a lot of these people have clashing cultures, or just plain don't like each other. When you get into inner cities and low income areas are where you tend to find strongholds of ethnic cultures, whether they be black, hispanic, eastern european, arabic, or any other people from a country outside the US that is basically poor as fuck. When you have friction between all these different people is when you see violence. Not because we have a constitutional right to own guns.

I don't suppose any of you hyper critical europeans know how many illegal or unregistered guns exist in cities like Bridgeport, New Haven, or Hartford? I don't either. But I do know that there are a shitload, and Connecticut one the wealthier states per capita in the country. Shit is a LOT more fucked up in St. Louis, Detroit, and Chicago.

Even up here in CT, gun regulations make it enough so that you can't just walk into any old store and walk out the same day with a gun. background checks, wait periods, etc and so on. Take that away and what do you do unarmed when you're surrounded by people who want you dead just because you're different and they all have access to guns because they break the law? Yeah, it is true that there aren't many school shootings where handguns are illegal. Not a hell of a lot of gun violence period. But look at the ethnography of those places, and then look at the ethnography here. Little bit different? I think so.




And I absolutely think people should be allowed to carry swords around with them. That would be fucking awesome.

[Shotgun Justice]

That's why people are annoyed, their government interfere a bit more than they should.

ya know, if half of the world wasnt recieving US hand outs, maybe we wouldnt be so willing to interfere. if yall are so upset with how the US takes care of business, feel free to support yourselves and take care of issues on your own but the fact of the matter is, you cant and wont and you need us and thats why you look down on us. no?

it is so much easier to criticize the ways of others than it is to take action yourself.

[Kutje Lik Andijvie]

There are two types of governments in this world: Ones that are obviously greedy and corrupt, and ones that are better at hiding it. Once you embrace that tenet, the world makes a lot more sense.

Cynicism -- more than just an attitude.

[nameless]

Jesus, you're funny, kinda though you would understand it anyway ;)
My aunt is from El Salvador, they moved to Venezuela when she was about 13.

I'm in a very picky mood.

[KH Guitar Freak]

ya know, if half of the world wasnt recieving US hand outs, maybe we wouldnt be so willing to interfere. if yall are so upset with how the US takes care of business, feel free to support yourselves and take care of issues on your own but the fact of the matter is, you cant and wont and you need us and thats why you look down on us. no?

it is so much easier to criticize the ways of others than it is to take action yourself.

Bingo...

[Ozzfun]

I get your point.
But they aren't doing that to every country they don't approve of? South America? Iraq? Afghanistan? Soviet Union?
I'm not saying that they're innocent, but is it always Captain America's job? That's why people are annoyed, their government interfere a bit more than they should. And I agree with you. When they can't run their own country, can't they just keep it in their own country then? I don't approve of their laws, and that Guantanamo business is filthy as hell. Human rights ftw!


But peace out.

I was semi-agreeing with everything you said until you brought up something this stupid. I really had higher expecations of you.

[Heidi]

ya know, if half of the world wasnt recieving US hand outs, maybe we wouldnt be so willing to interfere. if yall are so upset with how the US takes care of business, feel free to support yourselves and take care of issues on your own but the fact of the matter is, you cant and wont and you need us and thats why you look down on us. no?

it is so much easier to criticize the ways of others than it is to take action yourself.
Checked the US situation on external debt recently?

Somebody said that we were 99.9% the same? First of all, Europe in general is a mix of different cultures... And actually, it's 90.
http://www.ssb.no/innvstat_en/
But is it so bad that people come from different places? Or look a bit different? I think it's sad that people stick to the people that looks exactly like themselves, but still I guess that's the easy way if your new in a country. It is a fact that most criminals here are the ones who have just entered the country, but things wont get better if we exclude them ;)

But I don't have time or energy for this, I it's a good thing that people don't always agree. It has to be that way if we're going to be able to see things from different angles and doubt things ;)

[Guitarslingerans]

But I don't have time or energy for this, I it's a good thing that people don't always agree. It has to be that way if we're going to be able to see things from different angles and doubt things as long as they agree with me because I refuse to try and se the angle and viewpoint of an American LIVING in America as to why having firearms is something that is needed. ;)


Fix'd.


-Ans-

[Mutato]

Heidi's in for a rude awakening when she grows up.

[Col.Kurtz]

I wonder what a pair of wooden shoes clicking down a dark alley while escaping a few violent Bloods on parole sounds like?

[Kutje Lik Andijvie]

Checked the US situation on external debt recently?

I really think you should turn down the smugness a little. Especially since you're young and don't know nearly as much as you think you do.

[Kgry]

Heidi's in for a rude awakening when she grows up.

http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/Tits-Or-GTFO/1/tits_or_gtfo.jpg

[esp_gaijin]

Mike, your fly is down...

Oh shit, mine is down too... 8o


Dude, I don't like where this is going 8o

SWORDFIGHT!!

[esp_gaijin]

I can has cheeseburger.

i hadz teh sergery.


-Ans-

yum :-d

[esp_gaijin]

Jesus, you're funny, kinda though you would understand it anyway ;)
My aunt is from El Salvador, they moved to Venezuela when she was about 13.


yes a lot of former nazi's escaped to south american countries.



:p

[MetalForBreakfast]

Somebody said that we were 99.9% the same? First of all, Europe in general is a mix of different cultures... And actually, it's 90.
http://www.ssb.no/innvstat_en/


Thank you for proving my point. It's ONLY 90% the same!! Europe is indeed a mix of different cultures. The entire fucking world is. Isn't the majority of Europe....white?

[Mr Pigwalk]

I refuse to try and se the angle and viewpoint of an American LIVING in America as to why having firearms is something that is needed.


Fix'd.

I'm an american living in america and I don't feel that guns are needed.

But I'm not going to debate the fact that it's your constitutional right to have them.

You can't expect every american to give a shit about your guns though, I don't really, and on the flip side I can't expect every american to give a shit about healthcare, we all have our own priorities.

I think we can all agree that we all need swords.

[esp_gaijin]

I think we can all agree that we all need swords.

again, i request swordfight,

it is much better than cripplefight, altho those are good too.

[Mutato]

I want everything for free.

[Jafis]

The holier-than-thou attitude of Europeans when it comes to the U.S. continues to perplex and disgust me -- and I'm saying this as a European. You may not like the way they do things, and you may think your way is better, but who the fuck are you to lecture?

They're miserable people and that's what miserable do. We had a guy here once from Norway who hated Americans. He was always giving people a hard time and he wasn't joking around. That guy made every effort to try and offend people even going so far as to say he hoped relatives of members here on the board that were serving in Iraq get killed. Some time later he ended up killing himself.

[Ozzfun]

They're miserable people and that's what miserable do. We had a guy here once from Norway who hated Americans. He was always giving people a hard time and he wasn't joking around. That guy made every effort to try and offend people even going so far as to say he hoped relatives of members here on the board that were serving in Iraq get killed. Some time later he ended up killing himself.

As I was reading that, before I hit the last sentence, I was thinking to myself, "gee a lot of Euro trolls often kill themselves." Doesn't Sweden have one of the highest suicide rates? Does this worry people like Heidi?

[Mr Pigwalk]

I want everything for free.

You get one sword and one court appointed trainee for free. Secondary blades may be provided as long as they're approved by the appropriate channels. The sooner you sign up the better your pick.

[esp_gaijin]

You get one sword and one court appointed trainee for free. Secondary blades may be provided as long as they're approved by the appropriate channels. The sooner you sign up the better your prick.

i KNEW it! i KNEW it!

[Mutato]

As I was reading that, before I hit the last sentence, I was thinking to myself, "gee a lot of Euro trolls often kill themselves." Doesn't Sweden have one of the highest suicide rates? Does this worry people like Heidi?

Just like the higher crime rate, it doesn't count.

[Kgry]

again, i request swordfight,


http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t1/interrupted82/monkeyswordfight.jpg

[esp_gaijin]

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t1/interrupted82/monkeyswordfight.jpg

i LOVE it, the best move with the sword? always to try and stick the pooper.

[Mr Pigwalk]

Yes by sword fights I meant penis fights, didn't you get the memo? By memo I mean the long island with the roofy. Drink now!

[jet66]

Dang it, that's just like me to show up to a swordfight with a pen knife.

[Ozzfun]

How do Swedish people kill themselves if they don't have guns? Are there more hangings, or more wrist slicings?

[Jafis]

Dang it, that's just like me to show up to a swordfight with a pen knife.

A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

[Shotgun Justice]

How do Swedish people kill themselves if they don't have guns? Are there more hangings, or more wrist slicings?

i have nothing to base it on, but i always just assumed they drowned themselves in used toilets

[Mutato]

I wonder what a pair of wooden shoes clicking down a dark alley while escaping a few violent Bloods on parole sounds like?




:rollin

[Col.Kurtz]

This Gaijin guy is nuttier than squirrel turds.

[MetalForBreakfast]

I want everything for free.

Me too. Let's both go to Sweden, where we can figure out how they commit suicide without guns. I hear just like you can kill yourself "suicide by police" style here, you can commit "suicide by yeti" style over there. I say we check it out.

[Jafis]

All I know is more of you guys need to bring your girlfriends to the forum so we can laugh at them.

[esp_gaijin]

Me too. Let's both go to Sweden, where we can figure out how they commit suicide without guns. I hear just like you can kill yourself "suicide by police" style here, you can commit "suicide by yeti" style over there. I say we check it out.

yeti......'sthat the chick who sang for the sugar cubes? one look at that face and i can see it inducing spontaneous death-by-hideousity.


or wait, was her name rrmkpa ? frnkfka? krkkpa? pkfaflute? something weird like that, i don't remember.

[Mutato]

That chick had a weird stalker. Did you guys ever see the video he made?

[Ozzfun]

Where is Heidi? I hope she didn't get depressed and kill herself.

[Mutato]

Where is Heidi? I hope she didn't get depressed and kill herself.



She's writing a song about it that will be sung in her angelic voice.


Right after the cover of Louie Louie.

[Ozzfun]

She's writing a song about it that will be sung in her angelic voice.


Right after the cover of Louie Louie.

:lol:lol:lol

I literally LOL'd.

It will be called "Sad Swede," and it will sound as if it came from the voice of God. The Alanis Morissette version.

[xchumfiestax]

yeti......'sthat the chick who sang for the sugar cubes? one look at that face and i can see it inducing spontaneous death-by-hideousity.


or wait, was her name rrmkpa ? frnkfka? krkkpa? pkfaflute? something weird like that, i don't remember.

bjork?

[esp_gaijin]

bjork?

:mad: hey! there's no cussing on this forum! there's kids here ya know.





sweeds :p
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,428942,00.html
Swedish Twins Get Hit Playing 'Frogger' on Freeway

[Mutato]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/vankrol/Swedish.jpg

[craigercj]

It seems to me that Europeans have such a general hatred of civilian ownership of arms and hatred for the U.S. because they've been subjects for so long they know nothing of true freedom and liberty, and are indoctrinated in collectivist garbage. You'd think they would have woken up after the atrocities that occurred shortly after gun confiscation less than a century ago. The sheeple in America are no better and are baaing for their entitlements more and more each day. They no longer know what independence and responsibility are. In fact, we've created a legal system that in an effort to 'prevent crime', we've taken the notion of responsibility out of it. We punish innocent acts regardless of malicious intent (gun control!). But there are still people out there (gun owners) that want to take responsibility for their own lives and actions, and they want the government to stay out of it. They don't want politicians and authorities dictating their lives, invading their privacy, or hassling them for doing legal, peaceful activities. We 'cling to our guns' because it's about more than just a collection of parts that fires a projectile, or about self defense. It's about an idealism and heritage that stems back to April 19, 1775 when those first shots were fired on Lexington Green. We believe in individual independence, liberty, privacy, and god given rights that SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. You cannot claim liberty if you do not have the tools and willingness to defend it, and you can't claim freedom if you first must walk through the government queue for it to be handed to you. Right now we fight the soft war through the ballot box and public office, but there may come a time when we must fight the hard war against the career criminals (politicians) who forcibly take our property, freedoms, or lives. We will not give up our tools that accomplish that. A police state is coming (or is already here; HiPo at your window: Your papers please!), our rights are increasingly being eroded even over simple traffic stops (mostly because people don't know their rights!). I would rather deal with armed criminals than a policing force backed by a superior firepower (or the only firepower!) and a corrupt legal system given free reign to fuck with peaceable citizens under the guise of protecting them and preventing crime.

I'm not saying the U.S. is the all encompassing example of freedom; it clearly is not, but it's still the kid at the top of the class, for now.

So anyways, there is a whole lot to the gun culture and there are legitimate reasons why the issue is so polarizing and folks like the NRA are so unwilling to give an inch.

[craigercj]

For those interested in learning how to shoot and learning the rifleman heritage of these United States of America, attend an Appleseed Shoot! It's very inexpensive and very informative. I guarantee your rifle shooting will improve tremendously.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org

[Mutato]

For those interested in learning how to shoot and learning the rifleman heritage of these United States of America, attend an Appleseed Shoot! It's very inexpensive and very informative. I guarantee your rifle shooting will improve tremendously.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org


I read that guy's article in Shotgun News all the time.

[craigercj]

I read that guy's article in Shotgun News all the time.

I met him at the last Appleseed I went to. Dude's a hardass.

[evilaudio]

It seems to me that Europeans have such a general hatred of civilian ownership of arms and hatred for the U.S. because they've been subjects for so long they no nothing of true freedom and liberty, and are indoctrinated in collectivist garbage. You'd think they would have woken up after the atrocities that occurred shortly after gun confiscation less than a century ago. The sheeple in America are no better and are baaing for their entitlements more and more each day. They no longer know what independence and responsibility are. In fact, we've created a legal system that in an effort to 'prevent crime', we've taken the notion of responsibility out of it. We punish innocent acts regardless of malicious intent (gun control!). But there are still people out there (gun owners) that want to take responsibility for their own lives and actions, and they want the government to stay out of it. They don't want politicians and authorities dictating their lives, invading their privacy, or hassling them for doing legal, peaceful activities. We 'cling to our guns' because it's about more than just a collection of parts that fires a projectile, or about self defense. It's about an idealism and heritage that stems back to April 19, 1775 when those first shots were fired on Lexington Green. We believe in individual independence, liberty, privacy, and god given rights that SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. You cannot claim liberty if you do not have the tools and willingness to defend it, and you can't claim freedom if you first must walk through the government queue for it to be handed to you. Right now we fight the soft war through the ballot box and public office, but there may come a time when we must fight the hard war against the career criminals (politicians) who forcibly take our property, freedoms, or lives. We will not give up our tools that accomplish that. A police state is coming (or is already here; HiPo at your window: Your papers please!), our rights are increasingly being eroded even over simple traffic stops (mostly because people don't know their rights!). I would rather deal with armed criminals than a policing force backed by a superior firepower (or the only firepower!) and a corrupt legal system given free reign to fuck with peaceable citizens under the guise of protecting them and preventing crime.

I'm not saying the U.S. is the all encompassing example of freedom; it clearly is not, but it's still the kid at the top of the class, for now.

So anyways, there is a whole lot to the gun culture and there are legitimate reasons why the issue is so polarizing and folks like the NRA are so unwilling to give an inch.
You are my new bestest internet friend. :lol


It's about an idealism and heritage that stems back to April 19, 1775 when those first shots were fired on Lexington Green.
You cannot claim liberty if you do not have the tools and willingness to defend it...
Right now we fight the soft war through the ballot box and public office, but there may come a time when we must fight the hard war



Well said.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll313/evilaudio/DCP_0003-2.jpg

[Yoshi]

It seems to me that Europeans have such a general hatred of civilian ownership of arms and hatred for the U.S. because they've been subjects for so long they no nothing of true freedom and liberty, and are indoctrinated in collectivist garbage. You'd think they would have woken up after the atrocities that occurred shortly after gun confiscation less than a century ago. The sheeple in America are no better and are baaing for their entitlements more and more each day. They no longer know what independence and responsibility are. In fact, we've created a legal system that in an effort to 'prevent crime', we've taken the notion of responsibility out of it. We punish innocent acts regardless of malicious intent (gun control!). But there are still people out there (gun owners) that want to take responsibility for their own lives and actions, and they want the government to stay out of it. They don't want politicians and authorities dictating their lives, invading their privacy, or hassling them for doing legal, peaceful activities. We 'cling to our guns' because it's about more than just a collection of parts that fires a projectile, or about self defense. It's about an idealism and heritage that stems back to April 19, 1775 when those first shots were fired on Lexington Green. We believe in individual independence, liberty, privacy, and god given rights that SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. You cannot claim liberty if you do not have the tools and willingness to defend it, and you can't claim freedom if you first must walk through the government queue for it to be handed to you. Right now we fight the soft war through the ballot box and public office, but there may come a time when we must fight the hard war against the career criminals (politicians) who forcibly take our property, freedoms, or lives. We will not give up our tools that accomplish that. A police state is coming (or is already here; HiPo at your window: Your papers please!), our rights are increasingly being eroded even over simple traffic stops (mostly because people don't know their rights!). I would rather deal with armed criminals than a policing force backed by a superior firepower (or the only firepower!) and a corrupt legal system given free reign to fuck with peaceable citizens under the guise of protecting them and preventing crime.

I'm not saying the U.S. is the all encompassing example of freedom; it clearly is not, but it's still the kid at the top of the class, for now.

So anyways, there is a whole lot to the gun culture and there are legitimate reasons why the issue is so polarizing and folks like the NRA are so unwilling to give an inch.

Don't wanna sound outta place...but didnt Dubya make himself exempt from over 750 laws? If so, is he not corrupt in doing so?

[Col.Kurtz]

Don't wanna sound outta place...but didnt Dubya make himself exempt from over 750 laws? If so, is he not corrupt in doing so?

Please list all 750 laws GWB broke, or get the fuck out of here.
Thanks.
Lobster claws.

[craigercj]

My little rant had nothing to do with republican beliefs (the party, not the governmental system we have strayed from. Republic \= democracy), but strict constitutional beliefs. I don't necessarily bide by the republican platform, although true conservatism is fairly aligned with individual freedom, small government, and upholding the constitution. The right wing has strayed far from that. The patriot act is the biggest threat to liberty in a long time. We are always one more crisis away from a police state or even martial law. There is a predictable, inevitable outcome from either direction this country heads, it's all about who will get there first. Do we fall under the weight of deficit spending and entitlements? Or do they strip our rights away from terrorism fear mongering? I'm really not sure what to do, but it seems to me a republican leadership might delay the eventuality that I fear, and if they don't, they at least won't strip away gun rights (before the fact) so people at least have a fighting chance.

[Corrigan]

Hey Ozz, Oslo is in Norway.
Also, I don't use a thesaurus, I'm a native speaker of English.

I think the notion of having inherent rights, as opposed to being granted them by the government, is really beautiful, and I in no way hate America or Americans. I hope it hasn't seemed like it.
With that said, there's nothing wrong in criticising US foreign policy, even if I don't live there.
If GW Bush is invading countries because he thinks he has god's permission or backing, that is very much my business as a world citizen.

[craigercj]

'World Citizen' always makes me laugh.

[Kutje Lik Andijvie]

'World Citizen' always makes me laugh.

It's right up there with "International Law".

[Corrigan]

It's right up there with "International Law".

Sharp as ever.

[Ozzfun]

Hey Ozz, Oslo is in Norway.
Also, I don't use a thesaurus, I'm a native speaker of English.

I think the notion of having inherent rights, as opposed to being granted them by the government, is really beautiful, and I in no way hate America or Americans. I hope it hasn't seemed like it.
With that said, there's nothing wrong in criticising US foreign policy, even if I don't live there.
If GW Bush is invading countries because he thinks he has god's permission or backing, that is very much my business as a world citizen.

:rollin

I love how you think you're masking your talking down to me by being very polite about it, yet you're incorrect or missing the point on the things you're talking down to me about.

I know dod and Heidi are from Norway. Thank you. I'd throw in some kind of "to us Americans, it's all the same thing" piece here, but you tend to get confused by my sarcasm.

The thesaurus thing is a jab at your fancy language that you tend to use when adding your .02 to arguments, not about your native language.

I'm not going to address this "world citizen" nonsense.

[craigercj]

Well said.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll313/evilaudio/DCP_0003-2.jpg

A pistol is for fighting your way back to your rifle! :)

http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v334/120/58/116400114/n116400114_30258457_7793.jpg

http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v317/120/58/116400114/n116400114_30254865_8227.jpg

[Corrigan]

:rollin

I love how you think you're masking your talking down to me by being very polite about it, yet you're incorrect or missing the point on the things you're talking down to me about.

I know dod and Heidi are from Norway. Thank you. I'd throw in some kind of "to us Americans, it's all the same thing" piece here, but you tend to get confused by my sarcasm.

The thesaurus thing is a jab at your fancy language that you tend to use when adding your .02 to arguments, not about your native language.

I'm not going to address this "world citizen" nonsense.


So I take it you've never heard of double irony, then?

US domestic policy does not, strictly speaking, concern me (unless of course it's in violation of international law). US foreign policy DOES concern me. How is that hard to grasp?

[Ozzfun]

So I take it you've never heard of double irony, then?

US domestic policy does not, strictly speaking, concern me (unless of course it's in violation of international law). US foreign policy DOES concern me. How is that hard to grasp?

I take it then, you've never heard of quadruple duple irony with a hint of satire, then, then?

My joke about Sarah Palin talking to God has nothing to do with serious international policy and was not an opening for you to start with your diarrhea spraying nonsense. We weren't talking about anything real.

[esp_gaijin]

oh ho ho, sarah palin is real. ...real HOT.

[Kutje Lik Andijvie]

Corrigan, your steadfast belief in progressivist concepts really shows your age. It's almost endearing.

[metalhobo]

oh ho ho, sarah palin is real. ...real HOT.

I thought you were gay.

[esp_gaijin]

no that's clay aikin. i know his name has some letters similar to mine, people confuse us two constantly.

[evilaudio]

A pistol is for fighting your way back to your rifle! :)

http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v334/120/58/116400114/n116400114_30258457_7793.jpg

http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v317/120/58/116400114/n116400114_30254865_8227.jpg
No need to fight my way back to my rifle. My 13 year old daughter gets the AR and covering fire duty. I get the pistol, the Nagant, and "targets of opportunity".
http://a701.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/70/l_775d07c36bd1129205e2b509a1e339dc.jpg

[craigercj]

US domestic policy does not, strictly speaking, concern me (unless of course it's in violation of international law).


If it's in violation of 'international law', wouldn't the country just pull out of whatever treaty that establishes the agreement to the law, thus negating any power of international organizations over sovereign states?

When the U.N. passes a global ban on small arms trade and civilian ownership, I guarantee we will tell them to thoroughly fuck off. What are they going to do, invade us? We have over 200 million civilian firearms and the most advanced military in the world. Destroy our economy? Global governance is such a fucking farce.

[Mr Pigwalk]

oh ho ho, sarah palin is real. ...real HOT.

If the McCain/Palin ticket fails to win The White House this November, Hugh Hefner would love to see ultra-conservative Republican vice presidential contender Sarah Palin pose naked for Playboy.

http://www.popcrunch.com/sarah-palin-playboy-magazine-nude-centerfold/

[Kutje Lik Andijvie]

If it's in violation of 'international law', wouldn't the country just pull out of whatever treaty that establishes the agreement to the law, thus negating any power of international organizations over sovereign states?

When the U.N. passes a global ban on small arms trade and civilian ownership, I guarantee we will tell them to thoroughly fuck off. What are they going to do, invade us? We have over 200 million civilian firearms and the most advanced military in the world. Destroy our economy? Global governance is such a fucking farce.

Exactly. For better or worse, "international law" is a crock.

[craigercj]

No need to fight my way back to my rifle. My 13 year old daughter gets the AR and covering fire duty. I get the pistol, the Nagant, and "targets of opportunity".
http://a701.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/70/l_775d07c36bd1129205e2b509a1e339dc.jpg

Nice!

Although, I'd pick something over the nagant that can consistently hit man size targets at 500 yards if you're going for targets of opportunity. That means 4 MOA from field expedient positions. Never owned one, but from what I hear I don't know if it's capable of that (quoting hearsay of course!). If you want a 'surp gun, take a look at Swiss Schmidt-Rubin Karabiner 31's (K31). The surplus ammunition is match grade and armor piercing. High quality stuff. The guns are perfectly capable of Sub-MOA accuracy.

An optic'ed .308 would be best. Bolt or semi with detachable mags. Reach out and touch 'em!

[Corrigan]

If it's in violation of 'international law', wouldn't the country just pull out of whatever treaty that establishes the agreement to the law, thus negating any power of international organizations over sovereign states?

When the U.N. passes a global ban on small arms trade and civilian ownership, I guarantee we will tell them to thoroughly fuck off. What are they going to do, invade us? We have over 200 million civilian firearms and the most advanced military in the world. Destroy our economy? Global governance is such a fucking farce.


That's a good point.